Eagle Project Workbook Headaches

[AvidSM]

STRONGLY ENCOURAGED does not mean MUST or SHALL. This is clearly defined under Mandated Procedures and Recommended Practices on page 2 of the new Guide to Advancement.

 

My interpretation of these guidelines is based on these procedures and I do not consider them to be very loose. If you dont agree, please specifically cite the written procedure that contradicts me. I welcome any helpful discussion on this forum. And, I am fully aware that filling out the Workbook is a requirement and am aware of all the paragraphs and their numbers that state so.

 

Your Council will have to deal with what paragraph 9.0.2.8 in the New BSA Advancement Guidelines means. This paragraph deals with what happens if part of the Workbook is not fully completed. It uses the words "strongly encouraged". Just as scouts are "strongly encouraged" to wear a uniform, but one is not required to be a scout and to advance to the rank of Eagle.

 

I would strongly encourage every candidate in my district to fill out the final plan, to the best of his ability. But if an EBOR in my district rejects a candidate only based on a final plan that is weak, poorly written, incomplete or overtaken by events, then I believe that candidate would have very good case for appealing the EBOR's decision especially if he proved to them by some other means that he has met ALL of the requirements.

 

This has not happened yet (I guess I am lucky in that respect) but we must be prepared for when it does. Please dont get hung up on my example of using an IPhone thats not the point Im trying to make here. And, I would strongly encourage the candidate to let the EBOR member know in advance what other means he intends to use and to get their consensus.

 

Change happens and it is my responsibilty as a District Commissioner to fully understand what the impact is a be prepared to deal with it. Headaches happen when people refuse to deal with or accept the change, or are ignorant of it.

 

 

 

[fred8033]

Mad Max: I'm just learning too and had to re-read that section a few times. I think AvidSM's interpretation is correct and not loose at all.

 

The "only" applies to using the official BSA eagle workbook. Districts and units can't say ... oh we've thought thru it and made changes that we feel are necessary. So here's the workbook you will use on your project. "Only the official workbook" is the key phrase. The wording following "only the official workbook" backs that up.

 

I see nothing that says a scout can't record more information elsewhere. For most projects, a detailed diagram, schematic, timeline, shopping list, time and attendance records, volunteer scheduling, donation list and such will be needed. Letters will have to be written. Invites sent. There's a lot of paper produced during an eagle project. For anything done in life, a plan occurs. It might be just in your head or written down. Eagle projects are significant work and, as such, planning occurs and records are created.

 

So when the EBOR evaluates leadership, what do they look at? Probably the SM's signature is good. But if they want to understand, bringing any records might help. Though the final plan can't be required, can other records be required? Not sure yet. The GTA section 9.0.1.5 does say to submit attachments. But that's vague.

 

It's just that the scout is not "required" to create a final plan. BUT ... he's still responsible for the topics listed in the final plan as he owns and leads his project. You can't lead a project with addressing the final plan topics. So it's natural that an EBOR will try to understand how he addressed those as part of leading the project. Seeing evidence of that leadership is important.

 

So the big big big challenge is if a scout produced no physical evidence of leadership (paper documents) other than the proposal and final report and pictures. The EBOR is only left with the EBOR questioning. If that questioning does not feel sufficient to the EBOR members, what happens? It might be approval, denial or suspension with a request to supply documents and evidence created during the project.

 

...

 

I told our current candidate to archive everything. Print out computer files, emails and web pages. Three hole punch paper and put it in a binder. Tape in receipts. Keep it semi-organized. Use it as the story of your project.

 

 

[eisely]

Our district advancement chair and I visited a local troop just last night. This troop has 22 life scouts in the pipeline and they have an annual meeting for life scouts and parents to discuss the eagle process. The point I emphasized is the same made elsewhere in this thread. As the scout moves ahead with his project, he is going to write stuff down in his planning process. Use the workbook as intended.

 

Make it easy for the EBOR and use the workbook. There should not be any hang ups about using the workbook since that is what EBOR expects to see. Any scout who has a work book that is essentially blank except for signatures risks being turned down outright or being deferred until he provides more documentation. Why put oneself through that?

 

Fred 8033's advice is also well taken. Save everything that backs up what you actually put into the workbook. If the workbook is well presented it is unlikely you will be asked about those details, but you should have supporting receipts, schedules, etc. available if you really need them.

[fred8033]

AvidSM: I just re-read section 9.0.2.8. I had scanned it before without absorbing it. Wow. Nicely worded. I love the admonition to keep focus on the eagle requirement intent (lead a project giving service to others) and avoid technicalities and avoid making "object lessons". Incredibly well worded sub-section. I've seen way too much scouting enthusiasm killed by "object lessons" that declare failure from successes.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Part of the EP requirement is to "plan and develop" the project. That's not a throwaway. There needs to be some level of planning and develpment and I take that to mean tangible planning and development. "I've programmed my brain to dream about my Eagle project" ain't gonna get it. At somepoint I am going to be asked to sign off on the requirement, including the planning and development.

 

Our troop is going to "ask" our Scouts to complete the final plan section of the workbook. And I mean "ask" as in the same way your father "asks" you to mow the lawn. Or another way to look at it is the workbook describes the final plan as "insurance." I think they mean insurance the way The Mob sells fire insurance to shop owners. In other words, don't do it at your own peril. Or perhaps a bit more positive and encouraging perspective is it is like we're offering you an advanced copy of an exam to take home and complete. I'll even grade it and give you the right answers before you sit for the exam for real. What schmuck would't take that offer?

 

It's the same thing. If a Scout works through the final plan and get the sign-off from the troop (literally or figuratively) and then gets some hard-A** from council wanting to reject the project at his Board of Review, then I will be the one pounding the table at the next advancement committee meeting and filing the appeal on your behalf.

 

From the troop's point of view, we need to consider that Eagle projects are now fully troop functions, with the leaders ultimately responsible, two-deep leadership and tour permits required, etc. That was not necessarily the case with the old guidelines. As such, the troop leadership has a responsibility to know what is going on. Certainly health and safety is a concern, but I'm not necessarily going to commit troop resources to an activity without some plan in place.

 

All that said, I don't care if you use the workbook for your final plan or not. I would think it silly not to use it. But I do want you to address most of the elements outlined in the workbook. I want to see schedules, plans, materials, equipment lists and a budget. I don't need to see MSDSs for glue, a map of driving directions to the work site, a "A into Slot 1" set of directions or any of the other baloney our council used to require. Of the four of five Life Scouts I've explained this to, their response has been "well of course we need a final plan with all the details." (Actually, what they said was, "duh" but that's what they meant.)

[fred8033]

Twocubdad wrote: "From the troop's point of view, we need to consider that Eagle projects are now fully troop functions, with the leaders ultimately responsible, two-deep leadership and tour permits required, etc. That was not necessarily the case with the old guidelines. As such, the troop leadership has a responsibility to know what is going on. Certainly health and safety is a concern, but I'm not necessarily going to commit troop resources to an activity without some plan in place. "

 

Hmmmmmm. I need to think thru this. In our troop, Eagle projects have never been coordinated or even discussed during leadership meetings... except announcing someone passed his EBOR. They don't show on the troop calendar. We support but have never kept them on the radar. It's fully a scout responsibility. In fact, we sometimes get frustrated when an Eagle candidate schedules a work weekend on a weekend we've scheduled a camping trip.

 

The new eagle workbook on the last page does say under risk mgmt: "Projects are considered part of a units program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc." I interpret that for policies and processes and to make sure everyone knows the BSA safety sweet sixteen applies. Not a statement that the troop leadership needs to be involved.

 

I don't see any further guidance in the GTA, G2SS or eagle workbook. Hmmmm.....

 

I just don't know yet.

 

I'd prefer it's a scout responsibility and not have the troop leaders hovering over his project for process compliance.

 

I just don't know yet.

 

[Twocubdad]

I think you have to consider the language which was changed from the old Advancement Committee Guide, that an Eagle candidate "does the project outside the normal sphere of Scouting." Compare that to the new section you quoted and that's a consider change in philosophy.

 

We've always held a bit of a middle ground. We always left EP's to the Scout to handle, including recruiting appropriate adult leadership. We've asked the Scout to run his schedule past the PLC as a courtesy. But if a Scout wants to schedule an EP workday on top of a troop activity and then use his non-Scout friends for labor, that was his perogative. Personally, I always attend at least one work day just to observe how the project is going and how the Scout is demonsrating leadership.

 

We haven't totally thought through how all this will be implemented. But with the old 50-page proposals out the window, our Scouts are as giddy as the Munchkins dancing around Dorothy's house. About anything will be seen as an improvement.

 

 

 

[Mad Max]

Thank you eisely and twocubdad for your comments. You make my point for me much better than I could myself.

 

We had a lively discussion last week at our Roundtable and I believe it was pretty much unanimous that the best way to grease the skids for Eagle Project paperwork, is to do it just like the book presents it, cover to cover. They all accepted the fact that these projects are now Unit Activities subject to the GTA and GTSS, Tour Plans, Fundraising Applications and yes, even the Workbook. Not only will the boys be judged at their EBOR, but the Unit itself will be judged, and nobody wants to be the first Unit to have their Eagle Candidate drop-kicked back into the fray for more work on their project, for lack of a Final Plan. I got no pushback at all on this topic at all.

 

And in the process, I think Ive come up with a work-around for all this Final Plan (and lack thereof) nonsense that will hopefully help prevent the embarrassment of an Eagle Candidate failing his EBOR for lack of planning and development, etc. Our Council Advancement Committee meeting is soon and we will no doubt have a lot to chew on.

 

[packsaddle]

One way to level the field is to just scrap the Eagle Project altogether. Do away with the workbook, the project, the adults interpreting/adding requirements/appealing, etc.

What was the reason for these projects in the first place? They are obviously a source of divisiveness and little more than an obstacle to be overcome - perhaps a test of endurance or pain tolerance.

[RememberSchiff]

I think the "Eagle Project" requirement came about in the early 60's. Before that there was a "Scout Spirit" requirement for Eagle (Life and Star too) to basically "do your best" to help your home, school, church, community - i.e. be a good scout. Some scouters wanted something more specific, something that the scout had done - the Eagle project. Then as I recall it was usually a singular effort - a scout planned it and did the work himself as the emphasis was still "scout spirit".

 

It certainly was simpler.

 

My $0.02,

 

[fred8033]

Mad Max: Just to be clear, are you saying your scouts will be required to do the final plan? You wrote "cover to cover" and "for lack of a final plan" and "I got no pushback at all". But you also wrote "is to do it just like the (BSA) book presents it". So, I'm confused.

 

I'm just not sure what you would get pushback for if your doing it just like the book presents it. I know TwoCubDad said his unit won't sign Eagle Proposals or Fundraising Plans without a detailed budget. Essentially establishing unit expectations that are beyond the BSA book.

 

Are you saying your unit won't accept proposals or projects without a final plan? When would the road block be put up? Proposal sign-off? Fundraiser sign-off? Project report sign-off?

 

Mind you, I'm not arguing against the need for a final plan. Any significant work needs planning. And I'm betting I won't see an eagle workbook without most or all of the final plan filled out.

 

I'm just interested in how many units or districts are planning to implement their own expectations.

 

...

 

RememberSchiff: Nice analysis. I yearn for what you describe (i.e. eagle scout reflecting scout spirit and not an uber-leader). But that gets back to scouting emphasizing citizenship instead of leadership. Yet another different discussion.

 

It's one reason I like the new workbook and process. Gets back to the scout doing a good deed and less of being a master bureaucrat.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think everyone is still feelin' their way through this. I like the new direction myself, the old thing had become such an exercise in bureaucracy that it really need to be blown up. But it will take a while for people to relax their grip a bit.

 

In the old way, I think the essence of the thing is that we were sending lads out to do the project on their own, and so there needed to be greater planning detail. In the new way, we're treatin' the project more like it's a regular troop event, where there are adults around and such.

 

So the way I'm tellin' people to think about it is that they should go through the same planning process they do with regular troop outings. When the PLC comes up with an outing (or annual plan of outings) and the committee approves it, what are the expectations for the level of planning that the youth leaders have in place? That's what you've been training the boy in for years, eh? That's what he's familiar with, and that's what the expectations should be for Eagle projects.

 

Most committees approve the calendar or outings with an outline of participants, budget, proper training in place, that sort of thing. Then, the SPL and PLs and such work out the detail specifics - food plan, agenda, transportation and gear specifics, exact purchases, etc.

 

Da process should be the same for Eagle. We should approve the plan with at the same point that we would approve an outing for the calendar, with the same level of detail. After that, the Eagle candidate will be working on details, consulting with people as he needs to. That's part of leadership.

 

If yeh find that a lad isn't puttin' together everything yeh need to make a "go" decision on an Eagle project, then the proper place to look is how your unit is handling outing planning, eh? By the time a lad hits Eagle he was likely involved on the PLC for quite a few outing plans, so that's where he should have been learnin' your expectations. The Eagle project expectations should not be somethin' different or special.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

Beavah: Very well said. "So the way I'm tellin' people to think about it is that they should go through the same planning process they do with regular troop outings.

 

I think that's accurate and it's a good way of explaining it. The old system was far far beyond what we'd do for any troop event, summer camp, high adventure, fundraising or court of honor. The new eagle workbook "proposal" is the same level of detail we do for our standard outings, even the week long summer camp.

 

I also like statement from the view of eliminating a double standard that events administered by adults have very little documentation and those by scouts need a research paper written.

[Twocubdad]

Where everyone is getting torqued up over this is worrying about this is the last one percent of kids/parents who will want to game the system and get away with something. Unfortunately, if you've been a Scout leader for much time, you've probably been burned by such a kid/parent, I know I have. So it's not a totally unreasonable concern, you can't build a program or policy around the outliers. Nor should judge the new policy on that basis.

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree that the old system was way over the top in the amount of bureaucracy and adult control it allowed. Our council was one of the worst. However, I think the new system may have gone slightly too far in the other direction. While it is now explicit that Eagle Projects are fully considered troop programs, technically, we can't require a Scout to provide the documentation we would require for planning a troop outing -- budgets, schedules, materials lists, logistics, etc.

 

I think I've posted this before, but the key to this is setting the expectation with the Scouts AND parents that although we may not require this information, we do expect it. We need to help them understand it is GREATLY in their best interest to use the Final Plan section of the workbook and to keep the troop leadership informed of their plans. Failure to do so WILL result in delays in getting work days scheduled with the troop or in obtaining tour permits and fundraising apps. It may also result in the project being rejected by the SM, CC or BOR after it is completed. In short, failure or refusal to cooperate puts your project and Eagle at risk.

 

In the bright light of day, just about everyone will agree. Problem comes when Dear Sweet Thang is two weeks from his 18th birthday and we decline to schedule a work day since DST has provided the troop with absoluted no information. Expect full Mama/Papa Bear mode.

 

But that's why there is a new method for handling disputed Eagle applications. If, for whatever reason, the SM or CC declines to sign a Eagle app or project workbook, the whole process get swept over to the district or council advancement committee.

 

But to my main point, I think there is too much focus on the doomsday scenarios. 99% of the time, the new procedures are going to be a great thing for the Scouts and leaders.

[fred8033]

twocubdad: Agree with your comments. Perhaps one area that's not 100% clear that I'm still trying to understand is ... "While it is now explicit that Eagle Projects are fully considered troop programs".

 

I think that overstates the new situation. The eagle workbook has it on page 22 under "Risk Management". It says ...

 

"Projects are considered part of a units program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc. The health and safety of those working on Eagle projects must be integrated with project execution. As with any Scouting activity, the Guide to Safe Scouting applies."

 

I think this is a reaction to the past where some argued that G2SS, youth protection, two deep and other BSA safety requirements did not apply to eagle projects. The argument was that eagle projects were not part of the unit program.

 

I think this is a good change. But, ... IMHO ... eagle projects are not "fully" part of the troop program as troop committees won't be monitoring eagle projects. Also, we don't need to show them on the troop calendar or have the troop make announcements about them. Yes, it's fully part of the program for policies, procedures and safety rules. No, it's not fully part of the troop program as for planning and coordination. It's up to the eagle candidate to coordinate and run his project.

 

I think it's more of a statement that unit leaders are expected to coach the youth about safety issues and be prepared to yell STOP if needed to protect the youth.

 

...

 

What I need to learn is how to coach and yell STOP if it's not being coordinated in detail with the troop. IMHO, it's up to the unit leaders to be interested in the project and ask questions. I guess I'm okay with that. Just need to see how things really work out.