Eagle POR Problem

[BartHumphries]

In that case, I would give him a POR and kick it up to the Council and National to tell the boy that he didn't complete in time for his Eagle (or to let them say ok, fine, whatever happens). I have no problem letting them be the bad guy in a case like this (presuming that the boy did actually work and continue in his POR, etc. and ended up about two months short of the six months he needed). I don't get paid enough to be the bad guy.

[ScoutNut]

>>"By expectin' the lad to run for election when the troop is holding elections, the ignoramus of a Scoutmaster is "denying" a deserving lad of his Entitlement."

[qwazse]

Other facts not in evidence:

 

The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge.

 

Even if that was his motivation, would I ask the SPL to find the boy a POR? Probably. But, then again, our troop does not have fixed elections. I have no idea what the history of the OP's troop is that would require them to stick to the schedule, but our troop plays fast-and-loose with elections and appointments, and sometimes I think we suffer from "schedule slip" and our program hurts because of it.

 

So, I'm with Beav. Don't throw stones. The ASM and SM should talk so that they understand each other's thinking -- even if they disagree. It's perfectly fine that the ASM communicate the opinions of the troop back to the boy, and explain him his options. There's nothing wrong with that being done out of a sense of loyalty to the boy and his folks. So I think CR8 did the right thing.

 

It will be interesting to see what the boy decides.

[Beavah]

Except that only the SPL, and PLs are elected. The other leadership positions are appointed, so there is no way for a Scout in those other positions to "run for election".

 

Of course not. But you and I both know that da practice in almost every troop out there is for newly elected SPLs to make their appointments right away and effective for their term, not leave open positions vacant. An occasional change here and there happens, but not if everyone is happy workin' away doin' their jobs.

 

So in all likelihood, all of da PORs that the troop actually uses were filled by election or appointment back when the lad wasn't interested or available.

 

The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout.

 

Off yeh go. "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method not a Goal". 100 times. Longhand, no usin' the computer!

 

The end of a lad's journey as a scout should never be about Eagle. It should be about friendships and good times had, and lookin' back at how much he's learned and lookin' forward to where he's goin' to take those lessons. If in a lad's last months in the program you are focused on Advancement, you're doin' this Scouting thing all wrong. Maybe that's why you're gettin' your dander up with so many fellow volunteer scouters.

 

I'm always just as happy about the Life for Life scouts and da 18 year olds who finish as Tenderfeet. Yah, for that matter I'm just as proud of the lads who go off to da hard-workin' world as those who join the service or who move on to higher education. In that way, I like treatin' all the kids the same. I'm proud because of the sort of people they've become, and will be. Happy because they'll carry a love of God's wild places in their heart and pass it along to their kids and grandkids long after my carbon components are sequestered six feet under.

 

Don't let da Methods get in da way of the Goals. The Goals are so much more fulfilling.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[fred8033]

Beavah - Method goals method goals method goals. Thanks for the lecturing diatribe and for being the fountain of all wisdom and for feeling responsible to post it over and over again. But the point is the scout is at the end of his journey as a scout and is asking for help to achieve something he has now decided he values for what ever reason. Though not required to help, any good scoutmaster should.

 

This has nothing to do with the perceived value of other ranks or the advancement path of other scouts or even a comparative analysis of the application of goals and methods.

 

This has to do with one young man reaching out for help to solve a relatively minor obstacle and the compassion of his troop leadership.

 

 

[fred8033]

qwazse: "The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge."

 

LOL. We have a scout in that exact situation in our troop right now. I have no issue with it. If it's what the scout values, I'll support him. It's still up to him to follow through on his requirements. It's his vision and my job as his leader to support him and not to look for reasons to say no.

 

It's no different than if at summer camp you have a few scouts who like to climb or ride horses. When reserving troop times, I'd watch/remind the SPL of those scouts so that he can work it into his priorities and maybe schedule a troop climb or a troop horseback ride.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh know....

 

A good friend of mine says that God answers all prayers for help, eh? Sometimes the answer is "Yes". Jesus prayed and Lazarus was raised from the dead. But sometimes the answer is "No". Jesus prayed that da cup of Calvary would pass him by, and it did not. And sometimes the answer is "Not yet". Jesus prayed that his disciples would all be One with him and da Father.

 

The boy is lookin' for help to get a position he needs for Eagle. There are lots of times we tell children "no" when what they're asking for help with is "getting something" (or getting out of something ). That's where da Methods and Goals thing comes in.

 

The Scoutmaster ain't as wise as the Almighty, so we should cut the fellow a bit of slack. But like the Almighty, sometimes da proper answer to a request for help is "Not until you've talked with da SPL and exhausted all other options". And sometimes da proper, most caring and compassionate answer is "No, all the positions are filled with people who also deserve their chance at advancement, and stepped forward when we had a need." Just like some of the time da right answer is "Yes, I will resurrect your opportunities."

 

Methods and Goals. Yeh have another 97 times . Yeh also might want to consider da definition of "diatribe". Though I like bein' credited as the font of all wisdom. We older furry critters are growin' old and feeble and find it hard to Beavah any more, so we have to do what we can.

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn]

"The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout.

 

Off yeh go. "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method not a Goal". 100 times. Longhand, no usin' the computer!

 

The end of a lad's journey as a scout should never be about Eagle. It should be about friendships and good times had, and lookin' back at how much he's learned and lookin' forward to where he's goin' to take those lessons."

 

 

Yeah - looks great on paper - but then reality has a way of turning paper into spit wads. So apparently the answer, when there would actually be time for an SM to step up to the plate and help a lad facilitate the journey to Eagle is to tell the lad that "Advancement is a method, not a goal and the journey shouldn't be about Eagle". Uh-huh - let me know how that works out for you.

 

 

[fred8033]

I did consider the definition of "diatribe". I'm absolutely fine with all three of the contexts below. You should look up the definition and consider the other persons perspective before suggesting there is an issue with a term.

 

Diatribe

1 archaic : a prolonged discourse

2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing

3 : ironic or satirical criticism

 

Scoutmasters aren't a god. Rarely do they need to pass judgement and very rarely do they ever need to say no to something that's not a safety issue. The scout's on his 2nd pass looking to solve an obstacle. The most important thing a scoutmaster can do is to help put control of advancement back in the hands of the scout. If it was five months left, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. He'd be pointing out a fact. If there was no way to honestly solve the requirements, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. But it can be done and very easily done and then it's up to the scout to fulfill the requirements.

 

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[VigilNavyCPO]

"The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout.

 

Off yeh go. "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method not a Goal". 100 times. Longhand, no usin' the computer!

 

The end of a lad's journey as a scout should never be about Eagle. It should be about friendships and good times had, and lookin' back at how much he's learned and lookin' forward to where he's goin' to take those lessons."

 

Problem is that only in America have we distorted the values by adding scolarships and the NEA that a Scout can only get by being a Eagle. Then we further distort (at least in my neck of the woods) by having LDS Troops that have 14 year old Eagles that do not meet the camping requirements for the OA. Throw in all the Adult run manscout Troops who also "arrange" Eagle path in 4 years so that it is out of the way for High school, and you see why this is a sad joke. Maybe this is why National is pushing for each Troop to have each Scout advance one rank per year.

[Beavah]

Problem is that only in America have we distorted the values by adding scolarships and the NEA that a Scout can only get by being a Eagle

 

Yah, gotta agree with yeh there, VigilCPO. And about the rest, too.

 

Perhaps we all need to get together and start funding some Green Bar Bill scholarships at twice the level of any Eagle Scout scholarship. Open to all lads who were truly active in their troop or crew for seven or four years, who meet their SM's and peers' standards for Scout Spirit and who did not make Eagle.

 

That and a Scouting for Life Association open to everyone who remembers their time in Scouting with fondness.

 

B

[CubsRgr8]

The end of a lad's journey as a scout should never be about Eagle. It should be about friendships and good times had, and lookin' back at how much he's learned and lookin' forward to where he's goin' to take those lessons.

 

How true! I purposely did not follow up with the Scout after our meeting because I wanted him to decide what to do. As it turns out, he decided that he really doesn't want to leave the Troop and his friends, even if it means giving up on Eagle. He's a great kid and I'm humbled that he thought to ask my advice earlier this month.

 

I tell you, Scouting has given back so much more to me than I have ever given it.

[fred8033]

Thanks for the follow up.

 

It sounds like the scout is finishing on a positive note. That's good. Any other discussion is moot. I hope he was given more options than finding a different troop. But, it's moot now as he turns 18 soon and then will be moving onto the military academy.

 

I don't really care for the quote you listed. It rings of a truism that white-washes the situation. I believe it's more the end of the scout's journey is about what the scout wants it to be about. It's the scouts responsibility to make it happen and the leaders role to support their dreams. But, it's moot now.

 

All scouts eventually leave scouting and at least he's leaving on a positive note.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Engineer61]

"Advancement is a method, not a goal and the journey shouldn't be about Eagle".

 

I double-dog dare ya to try that on my wife, the grandpa or the SM/ASM's in my son's troop.

 

3-1 that you'd get flogged.

 

LOL

[sherminator505]

Engineer61 - if those folks were in my district, I would be happy to tell them that at the next roundtable. It's something that I regularly remind fellow Scouters of, particularly the ones that use an "Eagle count" as a measure of success.