Eagle POR Problem

[Venividi]

 

 

Seems to me that there are a whole lot of assumptions going on here. Assuming that the scout is beset upon by uncaring, unhelpful adults. Assuming that the scout consiously made a decision NOT to take a POR because he wouldn't have time to fulfill the responsibilities, etc. But we only have half a story. It would also be possible for one to assume that the scout has been inactive or borderline inactive for a a lot of years, was only marginally interested in scouting, that the SM's experience with the scout has been that, even with a lot of coaching, the scout never put effort into leadership positions that he has held in the past. Perhaps he was only in the program because his parents wouldn't let him quit, and troop leadership kept him on the roster because a parent was influential in keeping him on the roster even though he hadn't attended a troop meeting in a year, etc. And perhaps the scout's current interest in Eagle is driven not because he wants to help younger scouts, but because having Eagle on his resume will give him a bump in rank in the military. Or extra scholarship money. The scout may have made priority choices to be active in other areas. Life is full of priority choices, and if the lad has received a military appointment, then it appears that those choices were the correct choices for him. He obviously has motivation, talent, and ability, but he may not have applied them to scouting. We just don't know.

 

Not that I believe that this was the case, but it is as likely a scenario as the one that has the scout being considerate of his fellow scouts by not taking a POR.

 

As has been said elsewhere, a POR isn't a right, it is earned by demonstrating the interest and commitment to his patrol and troop. That said, my viwe is that this could be an excellent opportunity to re-engage a scout in the troop, and motivating him to use his ability and talents to help fellow scouts in the troop (the academy appointment shows that he has the ability and talent). After all, character and citizenship isn't about what the troop can do for me, its about what I can do for fellow scouts and the larger community. I believe this applies both to the scouts and the SM/CC.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I wonder why the SM is deciding to deny this boy his Eagle?

I would not put it that way. My observation is that the SM, the COR, the CC and the advancement chair are all on the same page: a Life scout should complete all Eagle requirements without any pro-active help from them."

[ScoutNut]

I would suggest to this Scout that he have a heart-to-heart talk with his SPL as soon as possible. It should be the SPL who appoints Scouts to leadership positions, not the SM, CC, or Committee.

[BartHumphries]

I think someone applying to a military academy would be able to handle a POR while he sought after his appointment. One of the main things that basic training does is to give a person more than they can possibly handle to see both how they respond and how they prioritize. For instance, about halfway though boot camp (or sooner or later, depending on when people are catching on), instructors will start unbuttoning the odd button here and there on a shirt or pair of pants when they inspect a person's hanging clothes. A 2nd surprise inspection the same day then turns up the improperly hung clothes and demerits are issued. How does a person respond, who do they blame, do they let it keep happening, do they turn to their fellow soldiers or do they let it break them apart or what? These types of situations are purposefully planned into boot camp to really shake a person out and to separate, if you'll pardon the saying, the men from the boys.

 

Being able to prioritize chasing after a military academy appointment and a POR in a troop seems like it shouldn't be that difficult for someone who's basically announcing that he wants to make a career doing that sort of multitasking.

 

I really can't comment more without actually knowing more about what really happened and who said what, etc., but my sympathy at the moment is with the Scoutmaster, although personally I'd be inclined to give the kid some kind of hard working POR with the caveat that if he let the POR slide then he'd be "fired" and thus wouldn't be making Eagle.

[VigilNavyCPO]

As a retired Navy CPO who spent the last three years as a recruiter, I can tell you getting into a military academy is not easy. I can see why the Scout whould not want to do both at the same time. This is a perfect example of why so many feel that Scouting has poor record on what Eagle mmeans from Troop to Troop. I bet if this young man was part of a manscout eaglemill troop he would of made Eagle by his 14th birthday, but because he is part of a troop with leaders who "put it on the boy" he will have to live with his choice of going for Eagle or serving his country. If all this young man needs is a POR, then this is just sad.

[fred8033]

"By refusing to allow this Scout to hold a POR your Troop leadership IS indeed making the decision to deny this Scout his Eagle award. "

 

I fully agree. By helping the scout find a meaningful POR, that puts the advancement control in his hands and it's up to him to earn his Eagle.

[Beavah]

Yah, yah. By expectin' the lad to run for election when the troop is holding elections, the ignoramus of a Scoutmaster is "denying" a deserving lad of his Entitlement.

 

Everyone needs to go home and write "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method and not a Goal" a hundred times.

 

There are all kinds of good reasons for a troop to shrug and say "if you want to run for office you have to do it when we hold elections". There are all kinds of good reasons sometimes to make exceptions and stretch for a particular boy if that's the right thing to do.

 

Hard for anyone to tell from afar where any case falls, and different CO's might have different takes on what's important for their unit or how they view citizenship, fitness and character. Da important thing here is that the COR and CC and SM are on the same page. That's a good thing for a troop, and usually suggests that things are runnin' OK in general.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

Beavah wrote: "Everyone needs to go home and write "Advancement and the Eagle Rank are a Method and not a Goal" a hundred times."

 

No one's saying anything different, eh! The problem is it's hardly a useful method when the response is "tough luck kid". The scout's got the time and willing to do the work. It's still up to the scout to earn the rank. It just takes a slight bit of flexibility from the troop. It's not that much to ask.

 

Beavah before you reply, why don't you write a hundred times on the wall: "Compassion is the basis of morality" or "Orthodoxy without compassion is the ugliest thing in the world".

 

Or how about some of Baden-Powell's quotes: "Correcting bad habits cannot be done by forbidding or punishment". Or "See things from the boy's point of view." Or "The most worth-while thing is to try to put happiness into the lives of others." Or "Scoutmasters need to enter into boys ambitions". Or "Scoutmasters deal with the individual boy rather than with the mass."

 

It might be the troop rule to only provide PORs during elections, but there is the option to be more flexible. Sometimes we need to deal with the situation instead of the rule.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think we always need to deal with the person and the situation, rather than the rule. I don't reckon anybody on these forums for any length of time sees me as a real rulemonger . Often enough, though, the proper way to help the program, the person, and the situation is to follow the rule.

 

After all, the rule used to be that if yeh gambled in da markets and lost, you were left holding the bag. However, arguments for compassion or systemic stability have led to bailouts. Great for the individual! I'm not bankrupt! Terrible for society, as it leads others to come to expect that they, too, will be bailed out.

 

Da same moral hazard exists in spades for a youth program. Each exception yeh make has the very real risk of teachin' the entire group that the exception is the norm that they can get away with when it's their turn. Or worse, it teaches others that the Scoutmaster "plays favorites" by makin' exceptions for the boys he "likes". Kids by and large don't listen to our words, they listen to our example.

 

Sometimes da right example is compassion, when somethin' beyond a boy's control is the primary cause or when there has been some real repentance and effort to make good. Sometimes an individual rule was poorly conceived and is doin' more harm than good in a situation. But it would be wrong of us to always assume that one of those things were the case. Often da proper, albeit hard, course of action is allow boys to experience the natural consequences of their own choices, because the rules are decent rules, because the needs of the group for truthfulness and consistency are important, and because a young man learns character and judgment by living with the consequences of his personal choices.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

Beavah, your over zealous adult leader tough love speech is misplaced. It's so thick that my boots got stuck.

 

The fact is a scout started asking for help in his rank advancement well in advance of a requirement deadline and was told tough luck. He's willing to do the work and there's options available. IMHO, that's enough to help the scout. Work with the SPL to find a meaningful POR and let him do the work and complete his rank requirements and earn his rank.

 

Compounding it is his entering the military. IMHO, that's enough penance to correct for almost any other misdeeds. And the fact it's a military academy, I can't believe the kids that bad.

 

The key is get the advancement back into the hands of the scout so he can earn his advancement and so that scouting can leave it's mark on him.

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh should get better boots.

 

I'm not sure what "the fact" really is, eh? Neither are you. We do have from da poster that the troop leadership are on the same page and that the boy waited until "literally the last possible moment."

 

So now, perhaps, he wants an adult to displace another boy or create a job for him out of thin air because he "needs" one. If that's right, then that's an approach that ain't goin' to get him very far at any of the service academies. They're not so much into da spoon-feeding adults thing. It might be a true kindness to say "no."

 

It also might be a true kindness to say "yes." I'm not advocatin' one way or another, eh? I personally might help the lad out. Or I personally might not. There's not enough here for me to know. What I'm mostly advocatin' for is not calling fellow scouters SH**HEADS when yeh don't know 'em. Odds are they're good people who care about kids who are doin' the best they can with the cards they've been dealt. After all, da SM, CC, and COR ran a program that kept a lad in for seven years and seems to have helped give him da desire to serve his country. That's to their credit as well as the boy's. Maybe we owe 'em some Loyalty, Courtesy, and Kindness.

 

Beavah

 

[IM_Kathy]

don't know the answer for this - too many things we don't know about.

 

I know my son's troop is dealing with similar issue but for a couple of boys working on Star. they did not attend meeting with elections and so are looking for SPL appointed positions - thing is they have had positions before and have not lived up to even the bare minimum of expectations even with a lot of guidance of adults and older scouts. so the SPL doesn't want to appoint these 2 into those positions. plus they don't winter camp and other than librain they need to attend campouts.

 

I'm in support of the SPL - he has reasons to not put these boys into those possitions, but he's getting a lot of pressure from the mom of 1 of the boy and she's also basically the scout mom for the other. So I talked with her and mentioned there are a lot of times that boys need a position and have to wait - my son and one of his buddies both had to do that. that just because for star it says to have a position doesn't mean they automatically get a position. My son doesn't even need a position as he's had his for eagle a couple of elections ago - but he still takes on positions that he can help with. He is often 1st quartermaster, but this time we have a very young SPL and asked my son to be ASPL so he has someone that has been SPL before to help him out along the way and my son said he'd be happy to.

 

for me a postion isn't about "it's required" it's about "this boy will be good for this position and will be a big help to the SPL and other members"

[fred8033]

Beavah - The facts are as stated in the column. Of course if different facts, then there's a different conclusion. Your arguments of ignorance and other red herring arguments just trigger distracting diatribes that don't help anyone. And be careful in your facts too, you don't know his troop leaders ran the program for seven years or that this kid was in the troop all those years or that the leaders contributed to the scout wanting to serve his country. That's not in the facts and now your jumping to conclusions.

 

What's in the facts is that the scout is reaching out for help to an ASSISTANT SCOUTMASTER in his troop and that ASM is now wondering what can be done. Yes, it's a tight timeline but it was easily within the requirements when he reached out. That's being a teenager. They are still learning, with very busy lives and there's still alot of magical thinking that still happens at that age. Our jobs as registered leaders are to help every scout. Sometimes that does mean being flexible.

 

As for the SM, CC and COR being on the same page, I've learned that often means squat. Strong leaders and group thinking often produces bad results.

 

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The key is that it's the end of his journey as a scout. The scout has/had time to fulfill the requirements. Unless there were significant extenuating circumstances, I'd help that scout find a POR and put the advancement back in his hands. It doesn't mean I'm going to show up at his Eagle project to help or print out merit badge worksheets or anything else.

 

The scout asked for specific help. For me, I'd work to help solve the issue he's facing simply because he's a scout in my troop and he asked.

 

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The fact that the scout has committed to serving his country is what makes me extremely disappointed in the troop leadership. Common on. He's good enough to enter the military academy. He's good enough to potentially risk his life for his country. But, he's not good enough for his own troop leaders to support him. Common on.

 

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IM_Kathy ... I'm mostly fine with what you wrote. POR's are about helping the troop. And scouts often must deal with the consequences of their actions and non-actions. ... It's interesting that your troop requires attending camp to get a POR. (den chief? webmaster? scribe? historian? ... a different discussion)

 

And my sympathies fade quickly when parents get involved and especially if they start putting pressure on another scout. I'd tell the parent to have the scout talk to me. That's a lesson scouts and parents need to learn very early in their scouting career. Usually in those situations, the scout wouldn't ask because it's just not that important to him.

 

But if the scout did ask, I'd try to help.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[IM_Kathy]

It's interesting that your troop requires attending camp to get a POR. (den chief? webmaster? scribe? historian? ... a different discussion)

 

Den Chief - the 2 boys looking for position do not want to be DC - and don't have the maturity to really want them to be good examples of the troop IMO

 

webmaster - the troop uses googlegroups so don't need a webmaster - the SPL just posts upcoming info.

 

scribe - the troop has never used

 

historian - the troop does use, but it does require attending campouts as they take pictures and keep up our troop binder of photos of activities.

 

quartermaster - obviously requires attending campouts

 

PL - doesn't require attending every campout but majority is nice and working with the APL to make sure one of them is there - but they missed elections any way.

 

librarian - is the only other position the troop really uses that doesn't require campouts, but they will also be missing several meeting due to wrestling so that's not an option either.

 

you are right in that the boys should be approaching the SPL - these boys like to try and skate by.

 

as for positions in the troop - while it's not required that they attend every event it is their responsibility to make sure someone fills in for them when they will be gone. For example during debate season (1st semester) my son always takes on quartermaster - he's been trying to teach younger scouts the role by getting qm2 & qm3 to attend and go over everything with them - having them do the work while he watches over and points out things that they are forgetting. but he won't take a position that requires attending meetings as his debate matches are on the same nights as troop meetings.

 

the one position I would like to see the troop use that it doesn't is chaplain's aide. leading prayer services when our campouts interfere with attending church, and leading prayers at COH's and such. but none of the boys have really wanted to take on that role and do what would be needed to fullfill the job. so instead we usually have a boy that is working on communication MB plan and put them on.

[Twocubdad]

Beav is making a point he has made many, many times over the years: we here shouldn't be so quick to assume the worst about a fellow Scouter.

 

No, Fred, the facts are not as stated in the column. The facts are the facts and we have access only to a second hand account of one side of the story. As best I can tell, CubsRgr8 still hasn't discussed this with the Scoutmaster. We have absolutely no idea why the SM, CC and COR would take such a hard line with this Scout.

 

I can tell you some years ago this identical post could have been written about me (save the part about the boy being nominated to a military academy). The part of the story you haven't heard is the part where I met NUMEROUS times with the Scout beginning nine months out from his birthday, reminding him he needed a POR, offering suggestions as to what he could do and even cutting him some slack in meeting the requirement. Also missing is any mention of the meeting we had -- with the troop advancement chairman as a witness -- 5.5 months before the boy's 18th birthday during which I looked the Scout square in the eyes, told him to find the SPL and get a POR that night or he would not be an Eagle Scout. (Yes, I was willing to spot him the two weeks he was short). Of course he didn't do so. About six weeks later the boy's mother called and asked me what he needed to do to finish his Eagle; that he was completing college applications and Eagle would be a boost. Of course my answer was "Nothing", it was too late. Mom cried, dad called me a S.O.B. and things went downhill from there. There were several retired Scouters and one neighboring Scoutmaster the family contacted with their side of the story any of whom could have written the same post CubsRgr8 did.

 

So yeah, without hearing the other side of the story, I, too, am willing to give the people on the ground with first-hand knowledge of the situation the benefit of the doubt. It would at least be nice if CubsRgr8 spoke with the SM and offered us the SM's view of things.

 

And speaking of which, I'm bothered by CubsRgr8's comment that his "friendship with the scout and his parents transcends that with the SM and even the troop." I'm not sure what to think about that. Friendships or not, I don't believe being a troop leader requires lock-step agreement with either the troop, it's leaders or the BSA. But neither should your loyalties fall entirely to the scout and his family either. I don't necessarily think this is a situation where one would be required to resign in order to support the Scout. But I do believe an ASM owes a level of loyalty and support to the troop and SM which doesn't seem to be reflected in this statement.

 

Would you care to clarify, CubsRgr8?