Eagle scout candidate, might not deserve it

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Scouts should be appointed to positions by the SPL, not the SM. And it's up to the SPL to decide if someone is appointed to an office and if so, which one, other than the PL that ought to be elected by the Patrol members.

 

I was in a troop where a Life Scout was manifestly incapable of performing most Scout Skills. I figure he was an adequate Tenderfoot or perhaps Second Class Scout on a good day.

 

Most of his requirements and Merit Badges had been approved by his father, who was CC. When the SM didn't approve his Scoutmaster Conference for Life, his father went ahead and awarded his son the Life rank anyway.

 

The SPL appointed the Scout to organize entertainment at campfires, a task which he was interested in but did not do. His father decided to appoint him to a different position. When it came time for his Eagle Scoutmaster conference, the SM again didn't approve it, but this time made it stick.

 

The family left the Troop, shopping for another troop for the boy to get his Eagle. No loss there.

 

Parents---- they create far more trouble than youths.

 

 

[Lisabob]

"His project meets my approval for an Eagle project, that's my scout's first step... when he's ready with his workbook, which he's not working on currently because in his words "..it's winter, I'm not doing any work on that during the winter its going to have to wait..." when he told me that, I just told him that "I'd like to see the completed workbook this year, but I'm not going to twist your arm to get it to me, you have to want to get it done." I left it at that.... "

 

Three thoughts.

 

1. If his project meets your approval, then that's a pretty good step and shows he is engaged and making progress. That's a totally different bird than the kid who just doesn't care. In other words, you have a lot to work with here.

 

2. He may have good reasons for his schedule. You may not know or understand them. Case in point: there's a boy in my son's troop who is a full time college student at age 16. The kid is suddenly consumed with school work - he has final exams to study for, papers to write, etc. He & parents decided he needed to back off of scouts for a few weeks. One adult in the group isn't getting the message and giving him a hard time about not taking on more leadership roles or attending more events in Nov/Dec. The boy got exasperated and ended up being a bit too blunt about it, which in turn led to a complaint that he wasn't sufficiently respectful of this adult. Sigh.

 

3. If he has a couple of years til he turns 18, then you have time to exert influence. (So what if he doesn't get the Eagle workbook done right now. Don't be pushy.) Also, you've been SM for 1.5 years? So in total, you'll be his SM for 3+ years by the time he ages out. That is a very long time in the life of a young man and you'll have many opportunities to help him mature into the sort of young man of character that you hope he will become. Not every boy has it all together at age 15-16, but you'll probably see a great deal of growth over the next year or so. Focus on that big picture, not on nit-picking the kid today. And by all means, teach him to tie a clove hitch, too.

 

 

[qwazse]

I think the boy has given you an "out" by proceeding slowly with his workbook. This is your opportunity to agree with him and say, "Hey, since we're not focusing on your project workbook this winter would you like to try some things that might make you a better patrol leader?"

 

You could suggest teaching/communication skills. Planning an activity, building a tower, gateway, or (brace yourself for committee member backlash) trebuchet!

 

Is he weak on all skills? For example, can he fold a flag properly? Does he know the parts of the badge well enough to host a Jeopardy game? You want to start by catering to his strengths.

 

Point is, if he's going to be slow on his Eagle project, you want to make it clear that he has to be into scouting.

 

Finally, it sounds like you may have to do as much listening as talking. Try to figure out what's going on in his life. Other activities, family, girls, cars, or friends could be playing a factor.

[allangr1024]

One thing I have learned about scout skills is this: If the boys don't have to use them, they lose them. Can't tie a taught line hitch? The kid never needs to. When I was a young scout, we had to use army pup tents. Those only stayed up if the lines were properly tied. If not, we woke to a tent fallen in on us.

 

I think we scouters need to find uses for these skills around the camp, and make it the normal procedure to use them. Are the patrols required to put up a patrol rain fly or tarp? What knots are used. Do the patrols rotate the scouts on chores like fire building and patrol cooking? Why not. Can we do some sort of first aid skills relay in troop meetings? Can we add the line rescue to our yearly scout swim test, so the boys can refresh their memory? Do we require patrols to construct a camp gadget in their campsites?

 

If a scout learns something when he is 11 and then never sees it again until he is 16, of course he will not know how to do it. I would not either. We have to find a way to review, and since we are playing a game with a purpose, we can find ways to make it fun, can't we.

[Exibar]

thank you all for your replies.

 

I have tried, and tried and tried with this boy. I will not give up on him...

I may have been too kind in my OP.

I have two ASM's that have told me that they will not be part of his EBOR, as he does not deserve it. He is lazy and lethargic, and a troublemaker most of the time. He is only in scouting because his father made him. Now, his father is no longer in the picture for reasons I won't go into here, and I feel his mom is asking him to just stay in until Eagle as he's almost done. He has told his friends that when he makes Eagle he's gone.

His Eagle project was a runner up project that one of my current potential Eagles had as a backup in case the town didn't approve his original one, which they did. The scout in question has put zero thought into his project thus far, and it shows. His mom knows more about his project than he does...

I want to see him succeed, but there has to be *something* that the boy does to show that he also wants to succeed... he has yet to show me or my other leaders any glimmer.

 

I have conceded that I'm basically stuck, I cannot unring a bell nor will I try. I will work with him on getting his Eagle project approved by council and help him in any way I can, just like I'm doing with my other scouts. If he gets his project done whereas it meets the needed requirements, I'll have no choice but to grant him his SMC and follow him onto his EBOR....

 

yes he has a couple years to do it...

 

I'd love it if he was good PL or even a good scout. I've paid for a JNYLT training course for him and a couple other scouts from troop funds. I thought it would do him good. He was the only one consistently not paying attention and he even fell asleep a couple times (the only scout to fall asleep out of perhaps 50 that took the training... I volunteered to help during the training so I was there the entire time).

I have asked him to teach a lashing class for the younger scouts, he had two weeks notice... yet didn't care enough to re-learn the clovehitch and was completely unable to teach anything. When I was still "fresh" as a SM I asked him about his merit badges on his sash one meeting... He had no idea what half of them were *I* knew more of them than he did and i was previously a Cubmaster... Cit in the world was one of them, I remember vividly... How can you not remember what the Citizenship in the world badge looks like?

I've offered help many many many times to him, I refuse to give up on him, but sadly I feel he's given up on Scouting.

 

sorry for the seeming rant. I'm stuck in a situation that I don't want to be in, none of us do. How can I stand in front of council and say he's worthy of the Eagle rank if I don't believe it deep inside of me?

I can only hope things will turn around before he finishes his project.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I have two ASM's that have told me that they will not be part of his EBOR">"He is only in scouting because his father made him.">"He has told his friends that when he makes Eagle he's gone."

[moosetracker]

Well unlike ScoutNut, I do understand the meaning of boys that are just worthy of the Eagle badge but get it anyway.. But, ScoutNut is right that it will not be yours or the ASM's problem to have to say he is a worthy canadate. That is up to the scout.

 

I will work with him on getting his Eagle project approved by council and help him in any way I can, just like I'm doing with my other scouts.

 

Here is where I find fault with your reasoning, and a potential that YOU will be aiding in getting an undeserving scout to Eagle.. You should be there to ensure safety and that he is the one leading the project. That is it. Let HIM work on his Eagle project workbook on his own.. Maybe a committee will allow him a dry run of his presentation for his proposed project, and give suggestions. That is all the help you should do, same with the other Life scouts.. His project should be planned, organized and paced all by the scout himself.. If you see the mother is doing the project for him, this is when you get involved to ask her to back off and remind her whose project it is.. Make sure he is running the work days, not his mother, not you. Make sure he works to get volunteers for his project. Don't make the boys in the troop feel it is mandatory they attend his project (Same with the other boys working on Eagle projects). If the other boys respect him and feel he is part of their team they will come.

 

In fact if you think it will be an issue, check with your Eagle board on what you can say to the parent to get them to back off.. I know one of our SM's did not sign the project completion due to the mother running the program, not the scout. Like your scout there was little else in his scouting career that said he was worthy of the rank. Would have been better if he had said something during, but he did not attend the workday that ran over a one week holiday. But, got feedback from those who did, and called others of us who were at the workdays to verify what he had heard.. He held his guns admidst the parents screaming, and council people calling him to see if he would not reconsider.. He did not request the boy do a different project, but that he give 6 months to scouting where he showed scout spirit.

 

The watering down of the Eagle project may make it harder for you to put teeth into making sure scout & not mother does the project. I think I heard that they can go to the board without your signature, if you refuse to sign it.. So, ask your board and follow through on their suggestions.

 

If he has no ambition or interest in the program, he will peter out without finishing the project. If he does finish the project then from what you indicate, he will have to re-engage himself to accomplish that. Enough to a point that you should be able to take pride in his accomplishment with this project at least.

 

So his workbook will not be ready in the near future. Not your problem, don't set deadlines for him for anything. When it is done, let him make his own appointment with the troop committee to present the project to them. You shouldn't be involved with overseeing his workbook or project at all. Just listen and give advice with the rest of the people at the committee, and if he doesn't listen to anyones suggestions, and makes no changes to the project before going to the District board.. Oh Well!!!

 

During the running of the project again, not your concern to help or pace him. You can volunteer to be a workerbee on his work days, you can make sure his parents are not doing the project for him..

 

Now you can suggest to the scout that if they wish, they can look for an adult in the troop who is willing to be their consultant.. But, it should not be you or his parents. It should be someone that is no more then a sounding board, and (if during consultation requested by the boy, not set up by the adult) will remind him of some safety issues he forgot, or paperwork he needs to submit.. Someone who does nothing but meet with him when the boy asks for some time, but does not try to pace him. If the boy never asks anyone to be the consultant, or asks someone, but never calls or uses them.. OH well...

 

Let the boy set his own pace, and if it is a pace of someone who has no interest, then it will show.

[Eagle92]

Do all you can to mentor the scout, but do not do the project for him. Sometimes the best lessons are learned from failure.

 

Give you an example. We had an Eagle candidate who planned to do a project for a local NPO. He worked very hard on it, but he screwed up, and screwed up royally. He didn't follow the wishes of the NPO, he did not look for advice from professionals who are parents in the troop, he did not take advice from the professionals when offered, he did not plan or promote the service project until the last minute, and I can go on and on. NPO basically told him stop, we don't want your help anymore.

 

Scout realized he screwed up, and publically admitted it. Now he is trying to start the prject process from scratch again, and I hope he learned his lesson, and does not repeat any mistakes.

 

 

[qwazse]

Thanks for more details. The guy's a slug. You need some salt.

 

First, remove him from PL before this goes any further. Tell him he can reapply to the SPL for the position (or any other leadership position) when he actually starts teaching and helping for a couple of months in a way that befits the POR he would like to be in. (E.g. for PL, teach a few scout skills; for QM inventory the troop's supplies; for Librarian measure shelf space or sort books.) Show scout spirit by doing stuff without looking for a reward.

 

Second, make it clear that as he gets older, you will expect quality workmanship. No typo's on project workbook. Detailed accounting for everything, etc ... So if he want's to procrastinate, fine. But he'd better show the highest quality work for the extra time he's taking.

 

Thirdly, make it clear that you consider part of Scout Spirit to be honing skills he already claims to know by virtue of the patch on his left pocket. That means if he can't "remember" 9 points of safe swim defense this week, you will expect him to be able to do it next week. If he is unfriendly at one meeting, he needs to apologize the next. An unwillingness to improve is a lack of Scout Spirit.

 

Fourthly (and this is the tough one). Explain to mom, that the last step to Eagle is the hardest, and some life scouts are just not cut out for it. The only way we'll know for sure is if we take the "heat" off of him to get that Eagle, and help him to simply be the best scout he can be.

 

Good luck.

[Venividi]

Rather than saying this:

> some life scouts are just not cut out for it.

 

Suggest saying something like this:

Many life scouts are not interested in advancement, or in getting Eagle. Your son has mentioned to me that he is more interested in (theater, music, track, science, robotics, ...). He will get more out of devoting his time to something that is meaningful to him than he will out of begrudgingly completing requiremetns for Eagle because adults are pushing/pulling him along. Your son has some fine qualities. He ( insert something positive that you know about him here). He is always welcome in here the troop, if HE wants to be a member. We do expect him to be a contributing member of his patrol and troop, the same as all other members.

 

And be sure to have a heart-to-heart chat with the scout before that conversation with mom/dad to find out what his interests are, some of his positive traits.(This message has been edited by venividi)

[Beavah]

Yah, Excibar, sometimes yeh just have to cut bait, eh?

 

Da issues you describe in terms of not being a good example to the younger boys, not doing any work, etc. - those things can really drag down a troop. To give boys who demonstrate that behavior an award really drags down a troop. The good lads who are willing to work hard for our awards feel cheated and undermined. The lads on the edge who benefit the most from learning to set and fulfill real goals are given da green light to slack off.

 

From what you and your fellow ASMs are saying, you've hit the limits with this young man. If yeh all recognize that you can't reach him with your scouting program and his presence is/will be a negative influence on da program of other boys, then it's time to act on that realization. Remove him from da POR, have a sit down with him and his mom about expectations, invite him to take a month off to think about what he wants to do. In a few cases, someone standing up like a man and telling him "no" is the sort of thing that a boy needs, and he comes 'round. Most of the time, it's a compassionate thing that gives the lad what he needs to tell mom or dad "no" and go pursue his own interests, where he really will engage and be successful. In both cases, it sets the right example for all the other boys in the troop.

 

So stop with da Eagle focus. Focus on the real needs of the boy and of your program, and deal forthrightly with the situation that yeh have.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

Not your place to decide if he's Eagle worthy or not. Let the Eagle advancement be his journey, not yours.

 

Be consistent. Support his advancement to the same amount you'd support any other scout.

 

Look for opportunities to be a positive influence on his character, his life and his skills.

 

That's about all you can do.

[Twocubdad]

Just had that very conversation this weekend with a two boys and their parents. It's pretty clear to me they have no real interest in the troop's program, but see camping as an opportunity to hang out in the woods together will fairly loose adult supervision. Although they are both 15, neither ever take any sort of responsibility or contribute to the overall good of the group. I sent both families home to decide if they really want to participate in the program or not.

 

I've learned being an advocate for the boys sometimes means convincing the parents he needs to move on to other interests. When a boy is 8, 10, or 12 years old, participating in Scouting is the parents' call -- like eating his vegetables or doing his homework. But when a boy reaches 13, 14 or 15, he's old enough to make his own decision -- and is certainly old enough to make everyone miserable is he's forced into something he doesn't want to do.

[Tampa Turtle]

We have a few boys who really just like going camping and hanging with the guys. I regularly argue with some of the adult leadership about pushing them to Eagle.

[moosetracker]

It's one thing not to care to advance, but still engage in the program and support your patrol & troop in the process.. These are still fine examples of scouts.

 

It is another to just be a bump on a log expecting everyone to wait on you hand & foot, and pass you through the system without doing anything to earn it.