Subtracting vs Adding

[Beavah]

 

However, it is equally important to remember that we cannot (CANNOT!) add to the requirements.

 

Yah, I was just curious, so I fiddled around with Google. Da official BSA program materials statement is that folks shouldn't add to or subtract from the requirements in the Advancement Program. Part of the BSA maintaining its copyrights and trademarks and not lettin' the thing go "open source".

 

So I tried to do some Google searches to see how often folks posting were really talkin' about only one side of things: adding, without ever expressing any concern about subtracting. It got kinda complicated and I sorta made a hash of it because often people would quote da whole thing when they only wanted to refer to adding. But close as I could tell in da Scouter.Com forums, people went on a tear about "no adding to the requirements" between 100 and 1000 times more often than anybody really mentioned "subtracting". (Yah, it comes up a lot!)

 

Now, perhaps there's been such a rash of people settin' outlandish new requirements that this imbalance is justified, but somehow all da threads about Eagle Mills belie that interpretation.

 

Seems like, if we wanted to be good BSA citizens and help da corporation defend its copyrights, trademarks, and brand, we should at least be reminding people not to subtract from da requirements just as often, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Good point, very good point.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Beavah,

 

 

 

Very good point.

 

Of course, the BEST place to make that point would be at Boy Scout Camps.

 

I assisted at a Trail to First Class program at a Scout Camp last summer. Most of the instruction was by 13-14 year old Scouts who were "Counselors in Training," and frankly most of them couldn't do the skills themselves, let alone teach them to others.

 

I tend to regard Boy Scout Camps as the birthplace of Eagle Milling, although some like swimming are done to a commendably high standard by very capable people.

[momof2cubs]

Well Bevah, this is good point. However, I think it may be harder to subtract than we think. That's not to say that some people don't fudge completing certain requirements, but as they are written, most of them leave room for interpretation, but I don't think they leave room for subtracting. For example, I am looking right now at the Tenderfoot requirements:

 

Spend at least ONE night in a patrol or troop campout. Not much room for subtracting there. The boy either camped one night or he didn't (unless you wanna get into the whole thing of what happens if he starts crying and wants to go home in the middle of the night and calls mom and she does come pick him up). Part II of same requirement: Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. Here is where we might get into fudging. What constitutes helping? If he just watched and "directed" as other people did it, is that helping? If he set up one pole? Two poles? If he took the tent out of the bag, is that helping?

 

Another one: show improvement in the activities listed (push ups, pull ups, etc). If he did one and then 30 days later he does 2..well that's technically improvement isn't it? But I know some leaders that post here that wouldn't consider that an improvement.

So bottom line: maybe the problem has more to do with interpretation and subjectivity than actually subtracting.

[momof2cubs]

I just thought of something else: physical disabilities (I won't get into the whole mental disability thing here).

 

At the bottom it says: No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or to subtract from, any advancement requirements.

 

At day camp last summer, I met a boy in a wheel chair. This was not a temporary situation. How do troops deal with the 5 mile hike requirement? I'm reading here at the bottom it says: * If you use a wheelchair or crutches, or if it is difficult for you to get around, you may substitute "trip" for "hike" in requirement 1b.

 

So hmm...that right there, we are kinda subtracting? And notice the ambiguous "if it is difficult for you to get around". I can see a parent arguing that for their over-weight son, it IS "too difficult to get around"

[Eagle92]

Mom,

 

There is a process for scouts with disabilities that can be applied WITH THE COUNCIL'S APPROVAL prior to beginning on the badges.

[qwazse]

M2C, there's no "kinda" subtracting. Either you are or you aren't.

 

We discussed the 5-mile-hike at length in another thread (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=327760).

 

Applying a footnote is following a requirement. It enables a boy to prove his orienteering skills -- the point of the 5-mile hike -- by using means that compensate for his inability to walk distances.

[Papadaddy]

Second what SP said.

[Eagle732]

Best place to see "subtracting from the requirements" is at summer camp.

[Basementdweller]

Had one of our neighboring troops attend the same summer camp the same week as us. We were very disappointed in the quality of the T-1 program. So we tested our boys and most did not have the knowledge for tenderfoot.

 

The neighboring troop gave their boys 1st class no testing involved.

 

So who is right or wrong????

[Frank17]

Here is the #1 rule that gets subtracted from the requirements EVERY Summer Camp in our Council:

 

"Summer Camp Merit Badge Counselors:

The same qualifications and rules for merit badge counselors apply to council summer camp merit badge programs. All merit badge counselors must be at least 18 years of age. Camp staff members under age 18 may assist with instruction but cannot serve in the role of the merit badge counselor."

 

Most of our "Counselors" are under-18 scouts who simply read the MB book to the scouts and then stamp the blue card at the end of the week. Our Camp's cards do not even list a MB counselor, just the camp name with no other info.

[Oak Tree]

I agree that summer camp is definitely a place that subtracts requirements. I'd add that this happens not just at summer camp, but in most places where large groups of Scouts take a merit badge together.

 

When a counselor is working with one or two Scouts, the requirements almost always get covered, but in large groups there is a real tendency to add some hand-waving over some of the requirements.

[Eagle92]

Been a while since I worked summer camp, or taught at a MBU, so please bear with me.

 

1) Do the Leaders' Guide list any advance work that needs to be done or state that you cannot complete the MB unless you do advance work?

 

I ask because I remember when I was a scout, we knew which MBs could be completed that week, which ones were a challenge to complete, and which ones that required work to do and bring to camp prior to completion. I know for some MBs I did a lot of work prior to camp for, bringing the stuff with me to show.

 

And when I worked at summer camps, it was the same way with prereqs and workd to do prior to camp being listed.

 

And I have placed information in the MBU book stating which requirements needed to be done prior to the MBU, and I had a bunch of scouts do the work and bring the results with them.

 

2) I admit I have mixed emotions on the sumemr camp staff issue. I've seen some excellent, extremely knowledgable folks teach the MBs, and I've seen some idiots who I wouldn't trust to use the skills he was teaching in an emergency. Thing is, it was both youth and adults that fell into both categories.

 

I personally like, for lack of a better term, a "mixed" approach. Youth and adults who really know their stuff teaching the classes, as it really should be. In the case of the youth, their area director whould be supervising them, i.e visiting their classes periodically, to insure that they are actuallty doing what they are suppose to be doing.

 

3)Sometimes folks will feel pressured by the program director, scout's SM, etc to give away the badge. Had that happen to me once with Lifesaving MB. Sorry but your scout didn't do the requriements, and I am not going to give any MB, especially the truly important ones that will save someone, away. PLUS your scout was the one disrupting the class and goofing off which didn't allow me the time to have anyone complete the MB.

 

4) There need to be limits to the number of folks in a class. You can only teach so many folks at a time. Either limit the numbers,or get more staff.

[Tampa Turtle]

Yes, one year at Woodruff the counselor said just stick a compass and map in your day-pack and that would meet the requirement! We made them retake it but some parents complained.

 

You would think the parents might understand that we are trying to keep their precious boys from getting lost.

[Basementdweller]

Turtle......

 

You and I both understand that most parents just want the line signed off they don't care if junior actually made pancakes or tied the knot. They spent XXX dollars on summer camp and are looking for their return on investment. Gone are the days of just having fun at summer camp.