What if there was GASP no advancement?

[Stosh]

Without Eagle Scout possibilities for college and business resumes, a lot of scouts would not be in the program. If that drops out of the program, so will many of the boys. National will never go for that.

 

Stosh

[Lisabob]

Well it is clear it wouldn't happen. But if it were up to me, I might keep SOME advancement and ditch OTHER advancement.

 

I'd keep most merit badges. Kids enjoy them, they explore new interests, and when done well, they learn a lot.

 

I'd probably keep some form of T-2-1 ranks. Or other way of certifying the point at which scouts have demonstrated proficiency in the skills and traits we expect to see in a 1st class scout.

 

I'd divorce merit badge completion from rank. Maybe some merit badges are pre-reqs to participating in certain aspects of the troop program (1st aid, for example). But I'd leave that to the troop level to decide.

 

I'd probably radically pare down or eliminate Star-Life-Eagle and all the make-work that goes with them. That doesn't mean I'd stop expecting leadership and personal growth. It does mean, I'd cut out the formal advancement programs at that point. And I sure wouldn't coerce scouts into doing merit badges they don't care about just to earn ranks that are way-stations (also not cared about) on the way to Eagle.

 

Or maybe I'd return to the day when Eagle was awarded in a different manner. Not sure.

 

From the scouts' end of things, I don't think it would change all that much for many of the boys. A lot of older boys aren't especially interested in advancement anyway (like my son) and don't see much need for a ribbon to prove their rank. Those that are could still pursue prestige and status in other ways, as some have pointed out, such as patrol and troop leadership positions.

 

In reality the boys know who the leaders are and it has little to do with the rank patches on the kids' shirts.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

If Scouting had begun with no advancement component, some competitive element would have been invented by now. Maybe not individual advancement, but some formalized competition structure. "My son is on the state championship Scout Troop." Or, "I was an Eagle-level finalist in the Southeast Region Scout tournament." Somehow it has to be rendered to a resume item. Look at what has happened to cheerleading and marching bands over the past generation or two.

 

Short of devine intervention, advancement is always going to be part of Scouting. But if the Lord does mandate we eliminate advancement I think we would suffer substantial membership losses in a relatively short period. Consider how many leaders "retire" as soon as their son makes Eagle. Or the number of troops which would be at a loss if they didn't have weekly advancement classes or MB universities to rely on. How many parents would continue to invest time and effort into scouting without the payoff at the end?

 

If you make the assumption we will only keep the boys and their families who really, really understand the intrinsic value of the program and what it is trying to teach, I think we would face some massive losses. I've had parents -- and even ASMs! -- tell me they want their sons to "hurry up and make Eagle" so they can focus on lacrosse in high school because that's where all the scholarship money for middle-class kids. Does that sound like someone who understands the real value of the program?

 

Even if the boys want to stay simply because they enjoy Scouting, I think you will lose a fair number of them due to lack of parental support. If Scouting as seen as "just hanging out in the woods with your buddies" with no tangible product, I believe you will lose the support of some parents.

 

Yeah, this is a pretty pessimistic view of SOME parents and the superficially-engaged boys we hope that some of the stuff we teach will eventually stick. Fortunately, with kids you never know when a seed planted with a boy like this will finally sprout.

 

On the other hand, if we're left with half as many boys and parents, but with those who really get Scouting and are involved because they really want to participate in the program.... wow!

[mds3d]

As an Eagle Scout who did not come from an "Eagle Mill" I offer my opinion on the subject.

 

Advancement and non-advancement related recognition has a purpose, and it is a good one. Easily attainable short term goals that build up to a long term goal keep boys interest. Sometimes they may not understand that what they are learning is a valuable life lesson, but they can understand that it is a requirement for that next rank or the merit badge they want.

 

Advancement is an important method of scouting. We should not wish for the scouts that desire that next rank more than anything to be left out of scouting. As long as it is their desire, it is healthy and will teach them many lessons along the way. I think that we might not be so jaded against advancement if it were not for those pushy parents we have all met who want their son to be Eagle at least 10 times more than their son does.

 

Let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater...

[Eagle92]

2Cub,

 

Even parents who should know better, say one who earned both Eagle and Exploring Silver as a youth, act like that. My cousin was pushed, and pushed hard to get Eagle so that once he got into HS he could focus on sports.

 

Uncle also pushed me, and to a degree he did succeed as I was on the fast track to Eagle at 14. But I was also having so much fun in scouts, that the fun took over. Uncle couldn't understand why I waited until 18 to get Eagle. Oh well I guess I didn't miss much with him not attending my ECOH. Luckily my first SPL in the troop had just come off active duty from the first Gulf War, and was able to attend. He got all my uncle's, as well as my cousin's parts in the ceremony since they didn't show. I think it worked out extremely well IMHO.

[kari_cardi]

Well, Beavah, I guess you are right. We should give up now and go back to being an Eagle mill since we will end up there anyway.

[JMHawkins]

Well, Beavah, I guess you are right. We should give up now and go back to being an Eagle mill since we will end up there anyway.

 

Sasha, they tell me that in the long run we're all dead, but between now and then I figure we can still have a lot of fun and do a lot of good. Keep going!

[Beavah]

Yah, don't be depressed Sasha! For da time when good folks take control of the program for a stretch, scouting is at its best, eh? Yeh do a lot of good for a lot of boys, and have fun doin' it.

 

Just because nuthin' lasts forever doesn't mean it isn't great work to do your best while yeh have the time and energy to do it.

 

Beavah

[JMHawkins]

In our desire to be modern sensible types, I think we've lost track of the value of rituals. Of rites of passage.

 

Oh, those are for backwards, primitive people, not us modern sophisiticates!

 

Except rituals and rites of passage are really important things for Scout aged boys. They need things like that. Advancement helps fill that need. Just a CoH where we say what Johnny did doesn't quite do it. The actual rank helps them recognize their own growth, especially when the rank requirements are real accomplishments that they had to work for.

 

 

[lrsap]

First of all, JK, RELAX. Of course advancement is an important and valuable aspect of Scouting. Just a friendly chat for the sake of chatting. I hope not everything on this site is meant to solve all of Scouting's heaviest problems. Sometimes around the campfire we let our imagination loose too.

 

The thing is, I know I am new and so is my troop. I'm just hoping the overwhelming feeling of "Am I doing this right" gets to be a little smaller as time goes on. As of now, I really haven't talked much about advancement with too many of the boys at all, and I'm afraid I could be doing them a disservice, or maybe not. My PL is focused on his advancement, so I'm running his patrol mates' advancement through him, letting him take the lead. Telling him he is not only responsible for his advancement but the advancement of the other boys has led, at least I think, to a higher quality of concentration on his part. And when the others see his desire to advance, it gets them going too.