observed an EBoR, part 2

[Beavah]

Yah, yah, blah blah.

 

We're tryin' to teach young men character and fitness, not how to weasel out of work on a technicality.

 

If a lad comes to a SM Conference or a BOR and he clearly hasn't done what was required for a badge, then the adults have two obligations, eh? First, they must address da failure of the MB counselor. Second, they must find the boy a new counselor so that he actually gets the real benefit of workin' with a good mentor and knowledgeable person on somethin' of value.

 

We made promises to the lad and his family, eh? We promised them that he would learn somethin' of value by spending his time workin' on a badge. The program owes the boy the full value of da MB that some lazy adult cheated him of. Yeh don't make it up to him by givin' him a piece of cloth, you make it up to him by workin' hard to get him a real, honest-to-goodness MB experience.

 

Now, if a lad comes to a SM Conference or a BOR and clearly hasn't done what was required for a badge, the boy also has an obligation of honor, eh? His obligation is to be honest about where his MB experience fell short, and to complete all da learning requirements of the badge before he wears it on his uniform. Because an honorable fellow doesn't wear somethin' that's a lie, even if adults give him da piece of cloth because they can't be bothered to live up to their own obligations.

 

Advancement is just a method, eh? It serves da aims and the values we want to teach. Nuthin' in a guidebook gives anyone license to dispense with da aims and values because of '22.83.37.12'.

 

Beavah

 

[bnelon44]

Beavah

 

Your not in charge of merit badges and merit badge counselors nor the merit badge program. The council and district is. You can only point the Scout to a counselor you prefer, you don't sit in judgement on the program they perform. If you don't like the counselor, send the Scout to a different counselor or complain to your council. Merit badges ain't your program... they never were a unit program. Always were part of the council delivered program.

[BartHumphries]

I think the point of the new rules is that the EBoR isn't supposed to be delving into merit badge minutia so as to avoid a youth saying that he was "robbed of his Eagle" because "some board of old men didn't believe that he'd done what he'd said he'd done". If it really is clear that he hasn't done the work, if a Scout were to say something like, "Yeah, I didn't even do X but the merit badge counselor signed off #Y anyway, or something like that" then yeah the EBoR shouldn't pass the Scout.

From http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

Question: What is an Eagle board of review?

Answer: The Eagle board of review is a bit different from other boards of review because it is the last major step for an Eagle Scout candidate. All his efforts peak at the Eagle board of review. It's akin to a job interview, but it allows the panel to determine whether the candidate is worthy of the recognition. The interview focuses on the Eagle candidate's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals.

The Scout has already had numerous Scoutmaster interviews and boards of review along the path to Eagle. This final board of review can be an overview of what's happened but it's more to determine whether he acts like an Eagle. What's his attitude like? Does he accept Scouting's ideals?

There's a sidebar on that scouting.org Rank Advancement FAQ page which spells it out again:

The Eagle board of review is not a test; nor is it used to review the Scout's rank or Scouting skills.

[bnelon44]

> "I think the point of the new rules is that the EBoR isn't supposed to be delving into merit badge minutia so as to avoid a youth saying that he was "robbed of his Eagle" because "some board of old men didn't believe that he'd done what he'd said he'd done". If it really is clear that he hasn't done the work, if a Scout were to say something like, "Yeah, I didn't even do X but the merit badge counselor signed off #Y anyway, or something like that" then yeah the EBoR shouldn't pass the Scout. "

 

No, unless there is a clear case of fraudulent behavior on the part of the Scout. Only issue is whether counselor was approved and registered, but even then it is rare a badge would be taken away. Once its earned; its earned. If the MB counselor signed the badge the badge is done. Merit badges aren't rank requirements. The BOR cannot reject or take a badge away from a Scout. In the case of an EBOR the Scout is sitting in front of you with the badge on his sash. What are you going to do, rip it off? You don't have the authority. What is done is done.

[CalicoPenn]

The very fact that we're talking about 8.1.0.0 and 8.1.1.0 and x.x.y.z should be raising a major red flag to every single volunteer out there on these new advancement guidelines. The only things I've ever seen that gets into that kind of detail are graduate theses, mil-specs and ISO 9000, 9001, 11000, 12000 etc. specs. In other words, wastes of space and time. (Gee, your company is ISO 12000? I don't really care, where's your dang rent!). It sounds to me like National is trying to answer all the questions it's gotten from people who apparently can't read plain English without thinking there are 20,000 ways to interpret it, so have created all these interpretations that make things even less clear and less cohesive.

 

In Beavah's ideal world, a Scout who is weak on an MB requirement that's been signed off will get the opportunity to try again because it's better for the boy - but if held everyone to that kind of standard, most of us would still be in 6th grade.

 

The fact - there is no "buts" involved - the fact, even under the new guidelines, is that when a MBC signs off on the requirement and the merit badge, the badge is earned, whether the requirement was strongly met or weakly met. The board making sure the lad has done what he's supposed to do is that the lad has gotten a merit badge application signed off by a merit badge counselor - if so, he's done what he's supposed to do. It doesn't matter if he remembers it or not - he earned the badge and has done what he supposed to do.

 

I'll also say I have absolutely no sympathy for the EBOR members in Eagle92's example that resigned after the appeal. They clearly failed to follow policy and went off the reservation. It really doesn't matter if the lad couldn't remember anything about the Indian Lore merit badge work that he did. When I went through my Eagle BOR, I wouldn't have been able to tell you a thing about what I learned from Dog Care, or Stamp Collecting, or Swimming (mainly because I didn't learn anything from swimming - it was pretty much a pro-forma badge for me at that time having been a competitive swimmer from the age of 8). And I probably would have given the DE a deer in the headlights look too, wondering who this stranger is who is asking me these questions (of course I knew our DE's since my parents were active at the district level, but I think you get my point).

 

I wonder if these new guidelines are just going to empower more tin pot dictators out there and lead to even more appeals to National.

[Scoutfish]

"Now, if a lad comes to a SM Conference or a BOR and clearly hasn't done what was required for a badge, the boy also has an obligation of honor, eh? His obligation is to be honest about where his MB experience fell short, and to complete all da learning requirements of the badge before he wears it on his uniform. "

 

Assuming the boy knows in the first place. Afterall, isn't that why he has a MB counselor? Isn't the boyu supposed to truct that counselor in wjhat he tells the boy and what guidance he gives?

 

Could it be possible that the boy has done everything correct as far as he knows? He can't be expected to already know..other wise, he wouldn't have needed the badge to begin with.

[Eagle92]

Bneleon,

 

If you notice, I mentioned that a BOR does not question a MBC's approval for a MB, and I pointed out the specific section of the G2A on the matter in a previous post. Again once it is signed off, the Scout get the MB.

 

But you still have not answered my question: What is a BOR suppose to do when through discussion of a scout career, they notice that MBs that are listed for whatever rank were not really earned by the Scout?

 

Say, for example, a First Class Scout is using Swimming, First Aid, Camping, Family Life, Pottery, and Indian Lore MBs to meet requirement 3 of the Star Rank: Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle.*

___________________________________(required for Eagle)*

___________________________________(required for Eagle)*

___________________________________(required for Eagle)*

___________________________________(required for Eagle)*

____________________________________________________

____________________________________________________

 

But in the course of the BOR when asking questions related to his overall scouting expereince it comes out that some of the requirements for these MBs were not completed, so what is the BOR to do? As I stated, G2A doesn't allow for a BOR to deny a MB; once it's signed off it is done. BUT the G2A also states a BOR has a responsibility to make sure the requirements are met for the rank, and can deny the rank explaining what the scout need to do to meet the requirements.

 

Do you see the contradiction in the G2A now?

[Beavah]

Your not in charge of merit badges and merit badge counselors nor the merit badge program. The council and district is.

 

Yah, I thought it was clear that I'm a silver tabber, bnellon44. Even used to wear that funny yellow color.

 

All that means exactly as much as a cloth patch though, eh? Da real program that matters to a lad and his family is the unit program. They're the ones who know the boy, they're the ones that are spendin' most of the time and effort and funds on his development and growth. Their reputation and liability is on da line primarily, not ours.

 

Our job as district and counselor scouters is not to say "This is ours, go away yeh silly unit scouter!". It's to say "this program is yours, and your CO's. We're here to help yeh however we can."

 

Scoutfish, I think it's an OK thing to expect a lad to actually read the MB requirements, eh? If yeh actually talk to lads at EBORs, they know when a badge was worthwhile and when it wasn't, and when they got da "A" just for showin' up. Just like Calico's lads know when they graduated sixth grade without being able to read. Da question is, if yeh have a 6th grader who isn't able to read, what do yeh do? Calico and bnellon44 say give him a diploma and throw him a party; once da teacher has written a grade down it can't be changed. I say fire da teacher, and then help him learn how to read. Forget da cookie, go back to what scouting is about.

 

Honestly, though, despite da mild improvements in the new G2A, I think BSA advancement has probably gone so far off da rails that it does far more harm than good to boys. Scoutin' would be a stronger program if we just did away with it at da Boy Scout level.

 

Beavah

 

[desertrat77]

Sign of the times when you hear arguments against long term competence and skills retention. Particularly ironic given the vaunted status of the Eagle award these days.

[BartHumphries]

Say, for example, a First Class Scout is using Swimming, First Aid, Camping, Family Life, Pottery, and Indian Lore MBs to meet requirement 3 of the Star Rank: Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle.*

Ok, not a problem so far. That's j, a, k, l, and two non-required so they fit just fine.

But in the course of the BOR when asking questions related to his overall scouting expereince it comes out that some of the requirements for these MBs were not completed, so what is the BOR to do?

Well, an EBoR is supposed to sign off on what the Scout's attitude is, right? If he said something like, "Gee, I should fix that!" Then I'd say that's the proper attitude. If he said something like, "Eh, who cares, it's old and done and my Scoutmaster gave me the merit badge." Well, that may not be the proper attitude.

 

That being said, it's entirely possible to not remember anything about a merit badge earned, even if it was done recently. Unfortunately, a lot of the time boys are tested on what's in their relatively short-term memory... just like most all of their math classes. It's generally not until the mid-term or a comprehensive final that a person is truly tested on everything they've learned about math that year.

 

Apparently I was wrong earlier. It seems that an EBoR is not a comprehensive "final" or a graduate thesis or something that delves deeply into everything the Scout has done through the last eight years of his life (depending on how old he is when he has his EBoR). Check to make sure the paperwork seems to be ok (going with all merit badges as presented as "passed"), check out his attitude/demeanor/etc., and pass on any further problems for the Council to worry about as they can better check the paperwork and resolve any problems that may have arisen during the EBoR.

[Eagle92]

'Rat,

 

I agree with ya. Heck I heard scouts this past weekend lamenting this fact. What I can say is this: whenever you hear folks talking about Eagle as a goal, whenever you you hear folks pushing to get Eagle, you got to tell them what the real purpose is.

 

I was having a conversation with a DL yesterday, saying that he wanted to have his son get Eagle ASAP so he will get it before losing interest. Had to tell him the real purpose of scouting was, and how the best way to keep the scouts interest is to give them responsibility and adventure. Told him I know of units where they eagle at 14 or 15 or so then leave b/c there is no program there for the older scouts. Then I told him of a troop where folks didn't care about getting Eagle, but they kept coming back b/c they were having fun and had a responsibility to work with the younger ones.

[Eagle92]

Bart,

 

We cross posted.

 

Actually according to the G2A the BOR has the following purposes:

 

decide whether he is qualified to advance

 

ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements

 

If a board decides not to approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what he can do to improve. Most Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not completing requirements properly. If it is thought that a Scout, before his 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If he does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. It must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures.

[Twocubdad]

Everyone blew right past the right answer:

 

We're tryin' to teach young men character and fitness, not how to weasel out of work on a technicality.

 

Thanks, Beav. Be careful raggin' on getting folks off on a technicality. Some of your Bretheren at the Bar may take exception.

 

This isn't about technicalities and specifications. It's about teaching kids what's right. So when it becomes clear a BoR candidate hasn't fulfilled the requirements of a merit badge what do you do? Do you throw your hands up and say, "merit badges are part of the district program"? (By the way, I'll buy that concept when our district actually starts recruiting counselors instead of relying on unit volunteers.) Do you quote G2A section x.y.z? Or do you quit worrying about appeal-proofing your program and ask the boy, "so what do you think the right thing to do is?" Help him find the right path. Hopefully the boy will offer a reasonable solution himself, but if he can't there's nothing wrong with suggesting he repeat the MB.

 

True story -- OneCubSon pulled a blue card for Personal Fittness and at a troop meeting approached the counselor to ask about getting started on the 90-day fitness program. The counselor took the blue card and a few minutes later gave it back signed as completed. OCS brought me the card and asked what to do. I asked him what he wanted to do. His idea waa to do all the work, show it the the counselor and then turn in the card. I told him that was a perfectly reasonable solution.

 

That's all we're looking for. That may not have been technically correct, but it was the right thing.+

 

Bart -- I don't remember what I had for lunch today either. I do, however remember doing my First Class Cooking at Dan Nichols State Park December, 1972. It got down into the teens that weekend. I was so cold, I got up about 2:00 am and started a fire. Soon the entire patrol was up so I went ahead and made breakfast -- bacon, eggs and instant oatmeal -- about 3:00 am.

 

A year from now, Bart, I don't expect you to tell me what you ate at LNT training, I do expect you to remember what you were taught. If a kid has absolutely no recollection of completing a requirement, yeah, it's a red flag and deserves further investigation. Which is why I would bring in the person who signed the book for their input.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Calico,

 

I missed your post earlier, so I'll respond now. In reference to me talking to the scout, it wasn't at the EBOR, but at an event later as he was wearing both the Eagle badge and his sash to the Den Chief Training being conducted at UoS. Just as folks who see a Scout or leader in public will come up and talk to them and reminisce about their Scouting expereince, or a WBer who sees another WBer will go talk about Gilwell, etc I saw someone with a MB that is a personal interest of mine and approached them to talk. Again it wasn't an interrogation, but a friendly chat.

 

Now your argument is that the EBOR is just suppose to make sure that the Scout has approached the MBC and gotten a signed blue card or signed off on the MB (some units don't use blue cards) correct? Well what about a situation that 3Cub describes, i.e. the MBC when approached just signs the card without having anything verified as done?

 

Now before anyone thinks I'm trying to be anal retentive on the topic, I'm not. You gotta remember I'm the one who at 18 years, 1 month and 4 days had his EBOR, which I thought the questions and answering went well, and was told that I was not going to get my Eagle b/c the current DAC was not the one who signed off on my project 5 years previous when I did the project.

 

Rather I am trying to find out what a BOR, especially an EBOR, can do when they deny rank and try to help the Scout out to get it. It seem as if every case that gets appealed get approved by national.

 

On a different note, I think part of the problem is that advancement problems do not get recognized until the EBOR since T-L BORs are done on the troop level, and sometimes advancement problems are either not recognized, are overlooked, or are encouraged.

[bnelon44]

>But in the course of the BOR when asking questions related to his overall scouting expereince it comes out that some of the requirements for these MBs were not completed, so what is the BOR to do? As I stated, G2A doesn't allow for a BOR to deny a MB; once it's signed off it is done. BUT the G2A also states a BOR has a responsibility to make sure the requirements are met for the rank, and can deny the rank explaining what the scout need to do to meet the requirements.

 

The requirements for the rank are that he complete the merit badge. Once it is signed off, he has completed it.

 

Now if he put down a merit badge that he didn't get signed off, that would be a different story and the BOR can catch that. Or if he put down a non-eagle badge and counted it as an eagle badge, again the BOR can and should catch such errors and have the Scout rectify them. However, as far as the correct badges being taken, if the badge is signed off, it is done. The BOR cannot take it away from the Scout if it thinks one of the requirements of the badge was not met.

 

It is very clear in the GTA sections 7.0.0.0, 8.0.0.0 and in the back where it has the BSA bylaws that there is no BOR process for reviewing merit badge work.