Introducing the Guide to Advancement

[bnelon44]

I agree you can't. I think 1 year is doable if your unit has a good program.

[Basementdweller]

It depends on whose definition of good your using??

 

 

Eagle driven adults?

Eagle Driven youth

or

Typical 11 year old scout????

 

I doubt the typical 11 year old would want to follow that T-1 in a year....Boring meetings and ever second is devoted to advancement, no fun in that.

[qwazse]

Let me start with a statistical sample of 8 (i.e. my youngest son's den). They all crossed over. Three years later none had made first class. Two remain in scouting. (One died, two relocated, three quit.)

 

So I guess those boys have been deprived of "Well-delivered programming", thanks to the leadership of my SM and his lackeys (your's truly included).

 

But, those two boys LOVE their troop. My son made FC at the 3.5 year mark and was elected PL. His buddy has to overcome a fear of H2O. In the meantime they've both racked up some MB's that interest them.

 

Do you really think the other boys, having earned FC two and a half years ago, would have been with us today? For the one boy, I wish it were true. But, a bogus badge of rank would have done nothing to keep that truck's brakes from failing.

[BrotherhoodWWW]

Bnelon44 wrote:

"This is a noble sentiment however there is NO requirement for first class that reads "make sure you know enough so the Scoutmaster thinks you can take cae of yourself in the outdoors." Your reading much more into the rank than is there. You are adding requirements that are not there. For all ranks, you do what is in the requiements and you earn the rank. Period. Anything extra, is just that, extra to advancement.

 

Everyone must remember that advancement is just one of eight methods of delivering the promise and we can't cram more into them than are written. If you want your Scouts to do more, great, but do it outside advancement and don't hold up a Scout's advancing with preconceived notions of what a 1st Class Scout is or an Eagle Scout is."

 

B I'm thinking you are falling into a trap here. Such statements as you make in your first sentence usually come from folks that emphasize advancement over the other seven methods. It is important to understand where we came from as an organization and how early handbooks for leaders had a phrase in the front crediting the countless volunteers over the years who have "actual experience over a period of years." At one time it was common knowledge that a First Class Scout was a boy that possessed the skills to take care of himself and others in the out of doors without need for adult supervision. That is the 'common' meaning of First Class. You may choose to accept a lesser standard in your unit but I will not in mine. This new Guide to Advancement seems to support a units reasonable requirements in specific areas, perhaps it is not also a reach to assume that The Scout LEARNS 4.2.1.1 actually means that learning sufficient to teach the skill is the bar that must be reached. To that I would say that a First Class Scout having the ability to take care of himself in the outdoors is not a requirement but surely is a reasonably expected outcome. If your 1st class scouts do not meet that then you are not following the spirit of the program. One/once and done is not learning.

[Twocubdad]

Nov-Dec 2011 issue (current) of "Scouting" magazine, page 15, "Advancement FAQs":

 

One hundred years ago, First Class was Scouting's highest rank and Star, Life and Eagle simply represented earning additional merit badges. While that concept has changed, First Class still signifies that a Scout hase mastered all of the basic Scouting Skills. Taken together, the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class ranks offer a short course in these essentials.

[bnelon44]

"Taken together, the Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class ranks offer a short course in these essentials. "

 

A short course is just that, a short course. It isn't expected that they have become masters in these skills by the time they are 1st Class and to the point where any Scoutmaster can reasonably expect that any 1st class scout can take care of themselves in the outdoors. Yes, they have seen the skills and demonstrated the skills, once, but that is all that is in the requirements at that stage. Now someone who has received the camping merit badge, maybe you can assume some level of competence, but by 1st class, it isn't there, they are just finishing learning the skills.

 

[Eagle92]

B,

 

I must respectfully disagree. I have seen First Class Scouts, teach basic scout skills. Heck at one time you had to have First Aid MB in order to get First Class. And while the requirements for First Aid may have been updated due to changes in medical research, teaching the First Aid skills have been a part of the requirements since I earned FA MB back in the day(ok FA Skill Award was required for Second Class back in the day if memory serves, and I remember being told as a 2nd Class Scout to teach the skill award so that a Tenderfoot could earn it and get Second Class, and help me get to First Class).

 

So historically BSA has expected Scouts to be able to teach T-2-1 skills that they have themselves have just learned. It was expected that skill be learned, and then reinforced by teaching the skills to younger scouts. And lets face it teaching skills reinforces the skill. One example I can give is that after 15+ years of not teaching lifeguarding, I was able to jump in, calm the victim, and get him to the side using the techniques that I was not only taught, but did teach until YMCA decided to no longer teach rescues without equipment. It was automatic responses from teaching those classes way back in the day.

 

So yes, I do think it is a reasonable expectation of a Scout to teach those skills he has just learned.

 

If we do not give our scouts the opportunity to learn these skills and teach them, we may end up with more 31 year old Eagle Scout leaders who get lost.

[Venividi]

bnelon,

 

Why ignore the sentence immediately preceding the one that you quote?

 

First Class still signifies that a Scout hase mastered all of the basic Scouting Skills.

 

I see the word "mastered" in it. I dont see how that is consistent with your statement "...someone who has received the camping merit badge, maybe you can assume some level of competence, but by 1st class, it isn't there"

 

I recognize that you have the freedom to implement your interpretation reasonable expectations. I miss however, how interpreting "mastered" to be equivalent to not competent to take care of themselves in the woods is helpful to the scouts in the long run. Low expectations may make life easier for adults in developing a program,and alow everyone to feel good about themselves by receiving lots of awards, but is it good for the scouts? Scouts will rise to the level of expectations, whether those expectations are reasonable, or low.

 

I am reminded of the caution to "beware the sublte bigotry of low expectations". No bigotry involved here, but low expectations never helped anyone, and are counterproductive.

(This message has been edited by venividi)

[bnelon44]

"First Class still signifies that a Scout hase mastered all of the basic Scouting Skills. "

 

ONCE

 

That is all the rank requirement requires and for many that is all it is. It isn't a certification that shows a Scout has retained any of the knowledge over time. None, zipp, nada.

 

If you are making it that, you are adding to requirements which is forbidden in BSA policy.

 

If you want to add more training in your troop, that is an admiral thing to do, but it isn't required to become 1st class.

[Beavah]

"First Class still signifies that a Scout hase mastered all of the basic Scouting Skills. " - ONCE

 

Yah, hmmm... I have to admit this had me just laughin'. A bit like Bill Clinton debating what da meaning of "is" is. In a lot of ways, it illustrates just how badly da Advancement Method has deteriorated to the point where it's completely undermining our mission and values.

 

Does anyone really believe that someone who has mastered a skill can't perform it on demand six months later? Goodness gracious! Better drop that CPR-trained individual requirement from Tour Plans for water activities. Can't expect that they'll "retain" knowledge and be able to use it.

 

Mastery means yeh really know how to do it, eh? Yeh can really perform in the field. And if yeh really know how, yeh don't forget that easily. If yeh master reading, yeh still know how to read 6 months later. If yeh master bike riding, yeh can still ride a bike years later.

 

And that's what we promise scouts and their families. We promise them that they will actually learn fun, adventurous, worthwhile skills. We promise them that ranks and badges actually mean somethin', and that they're worth putting in time and effort to work for. And we're tellin' the broader community that a First Class badge means something, and a Lifesaving MB means something, and an Eagle Scout Badge means something. Not that they did a task once upon a time, eh? It means they have skills and values that are useful now, that they have mastered things that will lead to success in work and college and life.

 

Anything less, and we're failin' to deliver the Promise. We're cheatin' the boys, lyin' to the family, deceiving the community.

 

That's not the Scouting program or Scouting Values. That's just lazy adults who aren't willin' to put da time into the program to actually help boys really learn.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

I didn't want to bring it up, but here it goes. the "One and Done" idea is not only detrimental, but will lead to more instances like this past weeekend in NH.

[OldGreyEagle]

The phrase "use it or lose it" comes to mind. If Tenderfoot to First Class lays the foundation of scouting (and it does) than these skills have to be ones that are retained.

 

I had more,but after I wrote the above, I decided to stop

[Beavah]

The phrase "use it or lose it" comes to mind.

 

Yah, yah, sure. For elderly folks like OGE or da Beavah, perhaps, where it can be a decade or two since yeh last did somethin'. Once you're over the hill it's easy to roll downhill.

 

But that's not what we're talkin' about when we're talkin' about kids. A lad who knows how to play soccer as a 7th grader still knows how to play soccer as an 8th grader. A boy who knows how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide still knows arithmetic after a whole summer of not usin' it.

 

And if he doesn't, then he never learned in the first place.

 

Talk to a boy sometime about Harry Potter or some other "favorite" book or video game or sports team. Months after reading it or playing it they can quote passages and describe plays and tell yeh exactly how to beat the monster on the 3rd level. In detail. If they can't do that for a basic scout skill, then they never learned it in the first place. Some lazy adult just pencil-whipped a requirement.

 

Beavah

 

[Venividi]

> Some lazy adult just pencil-whipped a requirement.

 

A bit perjorative, methinks. Given that units have the choice to use program materials to meet the needs of their chartering organization, some units choose to focus on advancement method with "no need to master or retain" not due to laziness, but because it meets their needs and/or goals.

[KC9DDI]

There's different kinds of learning, and there's different kinds of cognitive and psychological function based on the skill set that's being learned.

 

A boy who knows how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide still knows arithmetic after a whole summer of not usin' it.

 

Seriously? You really think that anyone over the age of 4 can go a whole summer without having to add, subtract, multiply or divide? "How much more money do I need to buy this computer game?" "What meal can I get at Burger King for $5 or less" "How many hours left until bed time?" Sure, maybe they're not writing out practice problems with a pencil and paper, but simple math is something that you start doing subconsciously after a while, right? So, essentially, you're always using it.

 

But what about higher-level math like trig or calculus? Something that you're not subconsciously using every single day. Sure you may retain most of it between school terms. But baring either repetitive use, or an above-average natural aptitude, I'm going to guess that most of what you learn will fade away after a year or two of not using it.

 

And, remember, upwards of 5 years can pass between earning the Tenderfoot Rank and appearing before an Eagle BOR.

 

There's different kinds of learning. Learning how to swim or how to ride a bike may not be something that you'll forget over time, but it's different from learning how to tie knots, setup a particular kind of tent or operate a particular kind of computer program.

 

For example, I worked for several years as a paramedic in a certain city. Obviously I needed to know my way around in order to do my job - and I really and truly learned my way around. Then I moved away from that city, but returned about a year later to visit. And, guess what, I didn't remember every interaction, every highway exit, etc. Sure I was able to find my way around without needing a map, but I certainly didn't "know" the area like a did while I was still working there.

 

So I can accept that a Scout who learned how to tie a sheepshank 5 years ago may not remember it now.