Introducing the Guide to Advancement

[moosetracker]

TrainerLady - Just have a question about what you are frustrated over.. You seem to be upset that the troop your in are not requiring profiency before the sign-off, or that they are requiring it at the SM conference?

 

Seems you agree your son is not profient because the troop does not offer opportunity to become so, but are very upset you son must wait a week to get his rank, when he should have gotten it tonight.

 

To be honest in both areas I think your troop is doing things wrong, but it is not the end of the world that your son needs to wait a week for a rank that by your admission he hasn't really earned.

 

SMC maybe is not suppose to be an interegation, but they do have the right to talk to the scout and figure out if they think the scout is ready to advance or not. Preferably this is more by knowing the scout and his ability in the field, not be drilling him on things they did not really give him the opportunity to learn.. But I could see some testing if the SM do allow the PL and older boys to teach and sign off ranks. This may be the only way they know that the older boys are doing well with their resposibilities or not.

 

Anyway the parts of the first class badge are not what I would call something necessary to know because it is knowledge that will save his life or his Patrol mates..

 

Anyway, I know that you are mad, but I am unsure what you are mad at. That your son isn't learning, or that he did not receive instant gratification..

 

You and your son need to figure out what it is that you want, if what you want means major changes to the troop you are in, then you need to recognize that in your position in the troop, that would be hard to make happen.. You can try a few things, but normally if you are not one of the Key 3, your only solution is to find a troop with ideas similar to your own..

 

Really that is teaching your son some true life skills. You are in control of your life by the choices that you make, but unless you are in a position of power, you have little control over forcing major change on a group of people who see what they do as "buisness as usual."..

 

Your son when he grows up can choose a career where he is self employeed. Or will work for someone, and if he does not like their buisness policies will need to look for someone else to work for.. Your son can pick his friends, and other social groups, he can choose his girlfriends and his wife.. But he can not choose them and then mold every one of them into what he wants them to be..

[BartHumphries]

"Well golly gee whiz, Mr. Scoutmaster, are there any other secret rules and regulations I need to know about?"

This was in reference to the "demonstrate/acquire proficiency/master requirement of a merit badge and whether they have to master something instead of just demonstrate it like the merit badge book says, but there are plenty of "hidden" rules in Scouting, such as the ban on pirate jokes and pirate references in a campfire. "What's a pirates favorite letter? Arrr!" I was shocked when I learned at National Camp School that National had apparently sent out a letter saying that pirates were banned from campfires because they're "too violent". This would just be the kids first lesson in unwritten rules and hidden regulations that all need to be followed.

[Eagle92]

Trainerlady,

 

Mixed emotions on your son. While I am glad he was told to know stuff he should have learned in order to advance, I do think they should have stayed longer since he took the time to review the material after being told to do so. He should not have been asked to come back next week. Also I do not like SMCs, or BORs for that matter, to be interrogation sessions. The SMC should be a time to mentor and counsel the scout, and if needed point out any challenges he may be having.

 

Also I am very upset with the way the troop operates. You are correct in that it is Webelos III. The youth should be teaching the skills. The youth, IMHO, should be the ones signing off on the T-2-1 requirements. One of the few good things to come out of Urban Scouting on 1972 was allowing scouts to sit on T-2-1 BORs, and in 1989 they did away with that, although some units continued with the old policy until informed at a later date. I think that was a mistake on national's part.

 

Is it possible for you to look to a more patrol method oriented troop?

 

 

[Eagle92]

Bart,

 

Please tell me you are joking about no more pirates?!?!?!?!?! We are in the middle of the "PIRATE NATION" (East Carolina University), the two scout reservations are on waterways that were the home of Blackbeard, and the Pamilico Sea Base has Jolly Roger sails on all of her boats, has several pirate flags hanging in the main building, and has incorporated skulls and crossbones in its ship's patch back in the day. Also we have incorporated Pirates into our CSDC themes, wish they woudl do so again this year since it's the Sea Scout Centennial, but oh well, I was outvoted. So Pirates are a big deal in these neck of the woods. You sabe me?

 

Which NCS did you go to, and did you see the letter? I ask because a few years back there was a scouting urban legend about no camoflage on scout properties, and someone expanded it to no more military surplus gear either. No such letter could be found, although folks said it was internal, and as for military surplus gear, I know several camps I worked out would have a problem becasue they do use such gear.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Beavah]

Yah, trainerlady, I have da same question as moosetracker. Which are you upset at - that your son is not learnin' things to proficiency, or that he didn't get instant gratification for not being proficient last night?

 

As a parent, I think I'd take da opportunity to help my son actually become proficient. I'd think it was a gift that the SM said "no", because I'd use it to help my son realize that learning is up to him. He can't expect someone to spoon-feed him all the time like in school. He can read the requirements, and he knows whether or not he knows the part of the badge, so he should have done the work to be ready. We'd work on it together, and on the other requirements where he felt weak. He'd learn a lesson about being responsible for himself, and about personal honor - never requesting a recognition that he didn't know he had down completely.

 

Now, as a commissioner, I'd take a different tack with da SM. Da problem yeh seem to describe is that the unit program never really gave the boys the opportunity to learn. It's commendable that the SM has enough of a vision of what he wants from boys to try to "hold the line", but he's holdin' the line at the wrong point. He needs help trying to improve the quality of the program earlier on in the process, at Step 1: A Scout Learns. So I'd work with him and the others in his unit on that. Hopefully, he'd also learn a lesson about responsibility and personal honor, eh? When a lad gets to a SM conference/BOR without really having learned, that's not a reflection of a lad, it's a flaw in the program that the SM has to take responsibility for.

 

So da proper response is different dependin' on whether you're a parent or a commissioner or someone else. I do think it's better for everyone, though, if we think in terms of our honor and responsibilities, rather than what we feel we are entitled to.

 

Beavah

 

[BartHumphries]

Bart,

Please tell me you are joking about no more pirates?!?!?!?!?!

In June 2011, I was at National Camp School at Lost Valley in Warner Springs, California, for Outdoor Skills Director. The people who were there for either Camp Commissioner or Program Director (the people in charge of setting up our campfire) swore up and down that they had all been given a letter from National which strictly forbade pirates from campfires, etc., since pirates are too violent. I did not see the letter myself, but they all said that they were certain that it really had come from National. I was fairly disgusted with this myself, as I really don't like "hidden" rules that can surprise a person, but those types of decisions are not my call to make.

[skeptic]

Emerald Bay has some explaining to do, if pirates are no longer allowed.

[Eagle92]

Guess I better get the Blackbeard CSP my council did.

 

Seriously, I would ask for a copy of that letter as I think someone is pulling your leg.

[BartHumphries]

I did consider that it was all a joke, but I was not the only person asking about this letter and they all, after repeated questioning, said that they really were serious. I don't think they'd really be into a multi-day practical joke of this nature on the whole camp. That being said, I just have their word on it.

[Beavah]

Yah, every now and then some unthoughtful nutter in a regional or national office sends out one of these goofy memos or rules, eh? Remember da one prohibiting certain skits in da NE Region? Or the it-just-won't-die prohibition of laser tag in da G2SS?

 

Best is just to ignore such nonsense. If someone really feels like tryin' to enforce it, yeh can deal with it then by gatherin' around and laughing at 'em. That's usually da best cure for people who are takin' themselves a might too seriously.

 

Arrrrhh!

 

Beavah

[qwazse]

On pirates: I just read a quote from a brigand who was arrested by Alexander the Great [to which I can only paraphrase at the moment]: "the only difference between us is I rob using one ship while you do the same with an armada."

 

On what-to-do-with-my-kid: Keep in mind that the SM may have gotten jumped on by the last BOR for sending up scouts who had no clue about insignia, and he was just trying to save the boy the embarrassment that comes with failure in front of a bunch of adults. Not saying the adults' attitude is right, but sometimes that's the dynamic.

 

If your boy's having fun, stay. Volunteer to offer a skills challenge on one or two requirements. (For example, I routinely offer orienteering challenges and water rescue, another dad is all about fire starting, another about citizenship, another about insignia.) Make it available to the entire troop. Have a prize for the best patrol or the boy who is first to submit an answer in writing. It could take up the morning of a campout, a 15 minute opening activity, or an 5 minute announcement. Make it so the SPL can set it up (or at least help).

 

You don't have to change everything. You just need to offer one thing that will enhance the program. (If you think of 5 things like that, hustle up and take WB because your ticket's nearly written.)

 

You just explain to your son that bureaucratic delays are part of the micromanagement of this troop, and enduring them is the price of sticking with it. If he's okay with that price, he'll learn to stick with it.

 

If he's not having fun, let him know it's okay to visit other troops and transfer to one that's more his style. When he's older he may find himself building patrols with other boys anyway (e.g. Jambo, O/A, etc ...), so he's just getting a head start on that fun part of scouting.

 

But, point out that chances are a boy-led troop may not sign off on requirements as quickly. PL's are busy people, and you often learn the parts of the badge on your own. Or if you do it in a group, you aren't allowed to sign off on it until at least the following week, and you have to get it perfect before they'll sign off (no looking it up and coming back that same hour), and there's no rank-advancement SMC until the PL is sure your stuff is in order. At the end of the day, forall the fun you'll have, advancement may go a little slower.

 

 

[fred8033]

People quote GTA sections that basically say "(b) In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, (emphasis mine)and career exploration." p 75 G2A

 

But that is not open authority to do what you want under the rule "unit expectations". BSA spells out specific requirements. "participate in activities" is 1 for T, 5 for 2nd class and 10 for first class. "leadership" is only supervising assistant cooks for first class.

 

Similarly for skills ... explain hiking skills and what to do when lost does not require mastery that lasts a life time. It's explain. Yes, one time. Life long memory and proficiency comes by going on hiking trips. Demonstrate a taut line is just demonstrate a taut line. Your going to learn it for a lifetime by helping setup the rain flies for the coming years.

 

...

 

trainerlady's post is a perfect example that I've seen before that I apparently failed to state clearly enough and that I think CalicoPenn was trying to give an example of. I've seen it locally with units that have senior scouts sign off on requirements but then don't trust that the skill was learned and later re-test the scout.

 

It's selective reading and just wrong to pay attention to GTA / ACPP general statements on proficiency, but then ignoring the specifics.

 

GTA 2.0.0.1 It Is a MethodNot an End in Itself - "Advancement is simply a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is one of several methods designed to help unit leadership carry out the aims and mission of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

GTA 5.0.1.3 - "No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority

to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

 

For trainerlady's post, this is the appropriate GTA reference.

 

GTA 4.2.3.5 Unit Leader (Scoutmaster) Conference - "Note that a Scout must participate or take part in one; it is not a test. Requirements do not say he must pass a conference."

 

If it's demonstrate, it's demonstrate. There's nothing saying demonstrate and then come back two weeks later to prove you still remember it (re-testing). That's adding requirements.

 

If you don't think the scout demonstrated the skill well enough, don't sign off in the 1st place. Show it to them and then tell them to go practice it with a patrol mate. Tell them that when they are ready, you will be there for them to demonstrate it. You don't have to lower your standards to do it the right way.

 

If you don't think the MB counselor taught the MB, you correct the counselor, not the scout. Then, you also work it into the program to get the scout the knowledge / skill he deserved through the MB. Same with rank requirements. If someone authorized signed off, correct that person and look to find a way to get the scout the skill. Don't whiplash the scout and tell him he did something wrong.

 

...

 

trailerlady - Though it might not be wise for the future of your son's experience in his troop to push it, per BSA GTA your son has completed the next requirement (participating in a SMC) and it is now his right to ask for a BOR and it is the required responsibility of the unit leaders get make it happen (GTA section 8.0.0.2). Your troop has blown it twice. First, if they don't believe your son completed the rank requirement as BSA wrote (knots, cooking or what ever), they should not have signed off. If the SM gives authority to an ASM or a senior scout to sign off, then it's signed off and done. Second, "failing" your son at a SMC is just wrong. You don't fail SMCs. If there is a concern that your son doesn't have the skill, there's plenty of opportunities in scouting to teach those skills. The wrong way though is to blind-side a scout telling them a requirement isn't done that's already been signed off. How can he plan his advancement? Who can he trust now? I'm just disgusted when I hear people defending what happened to your son. It's just wrong!

 

It's interesting when reading both the GTA requirements and the SM handbook discussion, everything in a SMC is a personal discussion. SMC is not at all a skills test.

 

...

 

Skills are only permanently ingrained through repetition over time. But T21 has few duration requirements and even those don't approach the number needed for mastery or long-term proficiency. The first class food requirement is a one time requirement. You don't get mastery / proficiency by doing it once. You get it by coordinating food for every three months for a few years. The example I always remember is the oath and law. I've seen scouts that know it very well for testing the tenderfoot requirement and then will forget it two days later. But if the troop says it at the start of each meeting for a few years, the scouts will remember it for a lifetime. Doing it once (at the level of proficiency required by the authorized person that signs off) fulfills the requirements for advancement. Doing it weekly makes the learning permanent.

 

 

 

 

[trainerlady]

Fred - thanks for the supportive IM

 

My frustration to answer several inquiries is based on the interrogation style of the SMC when that is blatantly not what BSA and G2A describe/mandate. Also only ASMs or the SM can sign off on skills at all levels. No youth is allowed to sign off anyone else regardless of rank, hence no youth teaching youth. I am WB trained, Philmont Scout Ranch trained in Webelos to First Class and fully SM trained. So I know that what is going on is wrong and finally lost my cool and called the SM and CC on it last night.

 

My son can cook anyone under the picnic table, he's been practicing at home. He can tie all his knots, finally pitch and take down his own tent by himself (it was new at summer camp and he needed me to show him how to do it). After 4 campouts he's got it down to the point that he taught his tentmate 2 weeks ago to do it with him. He can swim like a fish, and knows his first aid cold.

 

The frustration is that he was FAILED number one, and over trivial stuff (in the scheme of the real world and life) number two. It isn't about instant gratification. He wouldn't see his patch for his new rank unitl February away. He'd get it at the next CoH (I know that is wrong too). Its about demanding proficiency at the wrong time and in the wrong place. Its about never giving the kids a chance to practice with supervision that knows what they are doing. The kids may as well be Lone Scouts and learn if they can on their own and show up once a quarter for a test of their learning abilities. Then if they learned sufficiently well on their own they can move on.

 

It is also frustration that while this was occuring and other boys were waiting their turns for a SMC (the boys form a line of chairs at a designated spot in the meeting room everyone knows what the boys are waiting for) our Eagle scout SPL, ASPL and two more Eagles were screwing around because they already the Eagle required badge being taught that night and weren't interested in the alternate badge. To their defense none of the younger kids asked for help, but the Eagles didn't take the intitative to offer help or pointers to the little guys waiting to be grilled. The 4 ESs are not what I want my son to grow up to be. In fact during son's last SMC our special needs scout was waiting for his first SMC. Son quizzed SNS, if asks you ______, what are you going to answer? If the answer wasn't quite right he would correct him. He coached another kid through a stressful time.

 

Its frustration about not really having a good alternative troop to go to and knowing that in reality things aren't going to change even though they are doing it really, REALLY wrong. And it is worry that son will now be black balled for a POR and won't get to advance any further anyway.

[fred8033]

In situations like these, I'm open and up front with my sons. Reality impacts ideals. Tell them what BSA says and then explain to them the situation. If you can't or don't want to change troops, then help them make the decision to just get through it. Rarely can a member change the habits of the troop. Protesting or fighting it too much will just alienate everyone.

 

And then help your son remember the experience and make the decision that when he someday becomes an adult scout leaders he'll do it by the book and not play these games.

[moosetracker]

Are the POR elections being held this coming week? Or do you have some troop policy that you can't have a POR if you don't pass an SMC on the first go round?

 

It would not be fair if he does miss the POR elections, over timing and very unfair if they have some policy over flunking an SMC. I can see frustration with that. But, your son can point out that the book does state that POR's can be made up by the SM and does not need to be a "titled" one from the handbook until he is working the POR during his Life Rank.. So your son could take the inititive and ask if he could coordinate something, maybe something normally done by the Adults in this Adult-led troop.. (I think that is still in the lastest Handbook printing). I know I was part of some brainstorming for positions when our troop got too big to give everyone in need a titled position.

 

Are you out in the country? Because normally there are different troops within a 5 to 10 mile radius of a given point on a map if in a larger town/city.. We live in the country, and did travel 30 minutes to our troop. But, we had a choice of about 4 closer, and maybe 10 for the 30 minute travel time we elected to do in order to have our son in a good troop (we hit about 4 larger towns/cities in different directions of our radius..)