Summer Camp MB mill - as usual

[Abel Magwitch]

What is the name of the camp so others can steer clear.

 

If it was a MB mill as usual, why does your troop still go to that camp?

 

If the council used 14 and 15 year olds as merit badge counselors, the council broke national policy which states that all merit badge counselors must be 18 years old or older.

 

Have you taken your concerns to the council advancement committee? the council camping committee? the council commissioner? Which council volunteer leaders have you gone to? What were there responses?

 

Sounds like your Scouts got a sub-standard program for the fees they paid to get the promised program.

 

Truly sad.

[Abel Magwitch]

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Abel Magwitch]

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Abel Magwitch]

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Abel Magwitch]

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[TAHAWK]

"Of course, there is no practical way to take this up with BSA since they do not share their mailing address, telephone number, or mail address with mere volunteers."

 

Shortridge:

 

"TAHAWK, that's just false, and I suspect you know that.

 

National's mailing address is printed on the back of the Boy Scout Handbook, even inside the front cover of the Wilderness Survival MBP you dislike so strongly.

 

You can get the phone number by calling information or doing a simple Google search. I imagine it's not printed on the books to deter parents and Scouts calling with simple questions that should be directed to Scoutmasters or councils. (National isn't an information clearinghouse.)

 

For general reference, it's 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, TX 75038, phone 972-580-2000.

 

National can be legitimately criticized on a number of fronts, but not about hiding their address."

 

 

Truthfully, Shortridge, I had no such idea. My image of how things work, communications-wise, was based on my experience -- my idea of reality, whether subjectively accurate or not. People do tend to operate on what they think is real, you know.

 

Nor was my statement precise.

 

My Council has told me several times that they have problems communicating past Area, and most of these instances were matters of interpretation of language. I sat and watched one nice Council employee try for about forty-five minutes to get someone -anyone - to talk to him about the first aid requirement that appears in so many outdoor badges. He failed. Our Council VP for Training then tried and failed. They had telephone numbers.

 

Our training person for YPT also had questions when the AV training came out, and was unable to find anyone to communicate with. He kept being referred to the training he had received. (Several of us looked at that and agreed that it did not cover his issues.)

 

I got telephone numbers indirectly three times, and each call elicited "How did you get this number" and a very short conversation indeed. One lady hung up after I said where I got the number. Two times I was abruptly told to contact my local council, despite saying in my opening sentence that my LC had referred me to National Council.

 

Yes, I was wrong about the snail mail address (1325 Walnut Hill Lane). I did write to that address. My letters might as well have been wrapped around a rock and dumped in Lake Erie for all the response they got: none.

 

Mr. Perez gave me an email address as did "Scouting." All I got was a form "Don't call us. We'll call you" response.

 

The very helpful staff at "Scouting" told me I could always "Write to the PO Box and be ignored." I did. I was.

 

But my call to the telephone number that you provided was a revelation. I was transferred to an actual human being. He was aware of the problem and suggested ways to try to get it fixed. He gave me his email address. and invited further communication. So thank you for your gift.

 

[TAHAWK]

"So does that mean that you arent going to accept anymore signed blue cards from any Scout camp by anyone involved with teaching or testing that is under 18 and not an expert in the area. Because to do otherwise is granting your approval of cheating. Correct?"

 

First, I said nothing about "teaching," which is expressly open to Scouts. Testing - passing - is to be the exclusive realm of adults.

 

Next, many camps have the "blue card" signed by an adult who neither taught nor tested. There is no provision for a unit Scouter to reject a "blue card" signed by an adult merit badge counselor.

 

Third, there is no requirement of competence - expertise - as such.

 

Otherwise, correct.

*********************************

Shortridge, as to the issue that you raise, which has been discussed in this thread, it seems more important not to cheat than to pretend to teach and pretend to recognize pretend achievement. There is no real good side to the choice you present. No one is winning. Moreover, Scouts had fun at camp when they earned two merit badges -- or one and the Peter McLaren Award. Why four or five unearned MB's are required escapes me, but I suspect its what the adults have come to expect.

*********************************

"And there is a fairly good chance that if enough SMs push the point, national will simply change the rule to exempt summer camp from MBC requirements. As is, out camp plays the game that the over-18 area director is the MBC of record, despite the Scout eaning a MB may never have any contact at all with the AD.

 

So here's an idea: if your camp play fast and loose with the rules, you should too. Namely the rule that says a signed blue card is a done deal and a SM cannot question it. If the card is signed by a 15-y.o. counselor, you've got a pretty good argument that the card isn't valid anyway."

 

Twocub, that is not what I was told today. I was told BSA is very concerned and trying to figure out how to enforce the rules. Reality, as I have noted, may be another thing. But the lost hunter will never better his situation unless the problem is admitted.

 

I am less concerned with the age of the real teacher and tester than their level of competence and opportunity to actually teach. Here, the two Scouts had no chance. They were set up to fail. The council then cheated by handing out the unearned badges. Once the Scout has his signed "blue card," it is much harder, as a practical matter, to fix the problem, and an appeal will likely result in the MB being awarded. If our SM would do try after-the-fact corrective action, I would support him. What we are doing is having the Scouts involved take instruction in the subject of the MB's in question, as any unit could do.

***************************************

"Again, only speaking for my own experiences at my past Councils camp, Ive only seen the staff directors sign off on cards who have to be over 18, most are over 21 in fact. Not saying it never has happened, but it is something they were aware of and had a policy in place for over the past 10 years or so.

 

The teaching staffer (typically are 16 to 18, yes) does keep a checklist of requirements completed which hangs in the Scoutmasters lounge."

 

Yes. Play-acting.

******************************************

"What is the name of the camp so others can steer clear."

 

As this is an almost universal practice and as this COuncil has yet to respond to my letter, it suffices to say "Any Camp U.S.A." If it has not 'come to your Council," you still need to watch for it. Easier to stop when just getting started.

 

"If it was a MB mill as usual, why does your troop still go to that camp?"

 

I joined this Troop after the decision had been made by the PLC. I could not have offered them an alternative except a troop camp, which I will encourage. Why did the PLC pick this camp? I was told, based on experience in 2009: very friendly staff; decent food; tremendous variety of MB's; good showers; especially nice waterfront. All these perceptions were accurate. And the camp filled for seven weeks, so others share the favorable view.

 

"If the council used 14 and 15 year olds as merit badge counselors, the council broke national policy which states that a all merit badge counselors must be 18 years old or older."

 

Yes

 

"Have you taken your concerns to the council advancement committee? the council camping committee? the council commissioner? Which council volunteer leaders have you gone to? What were there responses?"

 

Again, this is not my council, but since my council does the same (Six CIT's as MBC's before the camp season closed this year), I have talked to the Council Advancement Chair and have a meeting with the SE next Tuesday. As noted above, thanks to Shortridge, I have also talked to the National Council - today.

 

As noted, I did write to the paid person assigned to outdoor program in the council in question. The names of the top volunteers do not appear on the council's website and Google didn't help.

 

And no "if" about it, sir.

 

"Sounds like your Scouts got a sub-standard program for the fees they paid to get the promised program."

 

Yes. Food for 20. 100 invited.

[bnelon44]

Over the past year, National has worked to improve communication between volunteers and the national office in the clarification of program content. Here are some email addresses:

 

For advancement questions:

advancement.team@scouting.org

 

Suggestions for new merit badges should be directed to the BSA Innovation Team at:

merit.badge@scouting.org

 

For general program content questions:

program.content@scouting.org

 

 

[bnelon44]

Resident camp standards require a letter from the council advancement committee approving merit badge counselors. There are no camp-related exemptions from the national qualifications for a MB counselor. Councils may not change the rules about who qualifies; this includes eligibility age. Staff members under 18 with subject-matter knowledge may assist with instruction, but they must work with qualified and approved counselors. Instruction may take place in group settings, but it must be done in accordance with the national group training proceedures which are given to summer camp staff.

[TAHAWK]

As noted on p. 5 of this thread: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

[BadenP]

And those are many of the same reasons that every year more and more troops are going to out of council camps or non BSA camps. Lazy SM's like this setup because that means they can sit back swill down coffee all day and let some 15yo CIT do all their work for them. In their opinions you can't get council to change their camps so just go with the flow. What a load of hooey. I wonder what quality of scout these slacker troops are actually producing, my guess are ones who skirt the rules or do the minimum possible to advance with minimum to no retention of anything they learned along the way.

 

In this forum we debate and argue over rules everyday, yet the councils don't seem to follow them, many of the scout leaders fudge on them, and National doesn't seem to care one way or the other, and the result is the disjointed program we have today, producing substandard scouts and Eagles. IMO we should take all the advancement guidelines, procedures and regulations, and the G2SS and burn them since few are following them anyway and no one from council or National is enforcing them or can enforce them. However if council is meeting their numbers and money quotas, junior is getting all his badges quickly and Eagle by 13, and troop leaders do not have to even camp anymore or even learn scout skills than everyone seems happy and content.

 

What ever happened to having pride in the quality of your organization and the programs it offers???((This message has been edited by BadenP)

[bnelon44]

This fall a new Guide to Advancement 2011 will be issued and placed online. Unline the previous ACPP the new book is written with the unit in mind. It is intended to be read by all adults interested advancement, most especially unit leaders and information disseminated throughout all councils at every level.

 

It is written in plain English and full of examples and explinations.

 

If everyone knows the proper process, it is hard for the lazy to ignore it.

[TAHAWK]

I hoped this could stay civil. Obviously, that was a faint hope.

[jtswestark]

BadenP We can all agree to disagree without using the garbage you spew. I know its a stretch for you, but please at least TRY to act like a Scouter. Your personal attacks show you as much less than that.

[dkurtenbach]

[badenP wrote:] In this forum we debate and argue over rules everyday, yet the councils don't seem to follow them, many of the scout leaders fudge on them, and National doesn't seem to care one way or the other, and the result is the disjointed program we have today, producing substandard scouts and Eagles. IMO we should take all the advancement guidelines, procedures and regulations, and the G2SS and burn them since few are following them anyway and no one from council or National is enforcing them or can enforce them. However if council is meeting their numbers and money quotas, junior is getting all his badges quickly and Eagle by 13, and troop leaders do not have to even camp anymore or even learn scout skills than everyone seems happy and content. [/badenP]

 

And here I thought that _I_ was cynical. [Wink] As I said previously in this thread:

 

"In any case, the whole point of Scouting is to change _boys_. Coincidentally, it is in our units where most of us have the actual ability to exercise leadership, to effect change, and to 'demand high quality and the very best.' The unit's year-'round program is where the rubber meets the road, where we can counteract the dumbing down of the program, where we can build membership, and where we can show the public the value of Scouting."

 

We often cannot control what happens in BSA at the National, council, district, or camp levels. But if you read the program literature such as the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook, Passport to High Adventure, Scouting Magazine, etc., you find a really great program for youth. Much of the excellence of that program is achievable by _us_ at the unit level, regardless of what is going on at National, council, district, and camp. Other than some paperwork we need to do with council from time to time (membership applications, merit badge counselor applications, advancement reports, tour plans) and some purchases at a Scout Shop or ScoutStuff.org (uniforms, handbooks, badges and insignia), units really don't have to deal with them at all if the unit doesn't like what they are doing, and can run a great program without burning the Guide to Safe Scouting and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures.