Board of Review Question

[moosetracker]

Engineer - it could be. Which is why before we wanted to reply we were asking Why?.

 

Normally though kids with an issue that the parents or the SM & ASM's have taken over their program, and they want to find a way to get it back to being boy run, are more talkative, and explain themselves..

 

This scout is just not really talkative about asking our advice on the best way to regain control of their troop, but just being very cryptic. Pleasant enough with the thank-yous, but anchored patches however they are anchored, but enough so that it is not flopping around on one thread, and are secure enough that they are straight & neat, do not just "fall off.".. So there is some story behind that..

 

The demand for written proof, rather than an explanation that fixing the patch for the next BOR, and going back in a week, rings of a person gearing up for a fight..

 

I don't mind a boy fighting respectfully to regain control of their troop, by showing the parents that they are capable and asking for the space, or Kudu's normal response of taking those who want to out backpacking, and getting away from those who don't want the adventure..

 

I do not think it is right to fill the head of a youth that you do not know, but could.. mind you could.. be gearing up for an "in your face".. type of rebellion, the suggestion to be disrespectful of the volunteers who are running their program..

 

Kudu - you have done well in the past steering boys on a great path to reorganize their troop, and retraining or enlightening the adults to their capabilities, so that they give them the chance to do that. I just do not think you started off dealing with this boy in that same frame of mind.. Rather you told him to rebel disrespectfully.. (all but your last comment, to sew the stupid patch back on.)

 

BDPT - exactly what I was thinking.. No need for this scout to make his path harder on himself, if his objective it truly to get to eagle.. If he wants to enlighten the adults in a respectful manner, then best he give us all the details so that we can help him figure out how to win his points, but allow the adults to believe he is taking the reins like a confident young man, rather than being rebellious and insolent.

 

[moosetracker]

Eagle92 - I have seen boys be great with each other, and very hard and unfair with each other. I have seen some troops who have the patrol leader (or if PL, the SPL/ASPL) but one boy sit on the board.. I think it was benificial for both boys (one on board, one having board) We tried to get something like that in our troop..

[OldGreyEagle]

while I certainly understand the logic being presented, I am trying to determine that the attitude being presented here of "going alone to get alone" as a life lesson is heroic or tragic

 

I have to work on it for awhile

[BadenP]

Man did you guys take the bait or what, this was an obvious troll question to start some flames going and that's exactly what it has done. iamcalvin is long gone probably laughing at all the infighting going on.

 

Look this was a nonissue from the start, his badge fell off during the BOR, so what he still had the badge in his possession with all the loose threads attached. There was absolutely NO reason to stop it. The problem is too many leaders have become so anal retentive in interpreting the rules and regs they totally lose focus as to why they are there in the first place. NON ISSUE, time for all of you move on to something really important like how to run a quality scout program.

[desertrat77]

BadenP, hear, hear!

 

Administrivia has trumped good programming in the BSA.

[NJCubScouter]

First of all, on this idea that a uniform is not required at a BOR, does anyone actually have any BSA literature that says the Troop Committee CANNOT require a uniform? In our troop, no Scout would show up at a BOR without a uniform. I don't recall any BORs being postponed due to lack of uniform; the issue just doesn't come up. I can see making an exception if a boy DOES NOT OWN a uniform, but there is no reason for that to be the case either, because we have a uniform closet and even families that would have no problem paying for a uniform are welcome to take from the uniform closet. If we happened to be out of a particular size and a parent came to the SM or CC and said they were unable to afford a uniform, a uniform would "appear" one way or another. So I really have no problem with saying that the boys need to show up for their BORs in uniform. Another thing is that we will have BOR's "on demand" so if the boy was unable to stop at home after band practice or whatever and is not in uniform, he can usually have his BOR the next week. If that ever turned out not to be good enough for someone, and they appealed to National and we were told officially that boys don't need to be in uniform for their BORs, we would change our practices. But I don't see that happening.

 

As far as the patch hanging off the pocket by a pin, I do not think this Scout's BOR was necessarily wrong to require a neat and clean appearance to the uniform. Personally I would NOT tell the boy to come back another time. I would probably remark on the patch and gently suggest that the NEXT time he has a BOR, the patch be sewed on. This is especially true for a Life BOR, where the boy's next BOR is going to be held at a district location and will not be chaired by someone from our troop. We have had situations where a boy shows up for a Star BOR and still has his Second Class patch on, for example. Again, I will gently suggest to the boy that when he receives his Star patch, it go on the uniform right away. We recently had a boy show up for his Tenderfoot BOR with his Webelos rank patch still on his shirt (not the Arrow of Light, the oval one that boys generally earn in the 4th grade), and I suspect he probably still had his pack numerals on his sleeve and no patrol patch. Again, we did not send him away; actually I just pointed at the patch and he knew what the issue was and I think when he shows up for his Second Class BOR, he will look like a Boy Scout rather than a Cub Scout.

 

So I think my approach to these things is better, but I don't necessarily think it is the only approach.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[momof2cubs]

You know Baden, you ARE right about that. However, I have always felt that scouting is not just about patches, ranks, knots, and camping; but about teaching boys about life and preparing them to be men of character.

 

And this to me, troll or not, seems like a good opportunity for a life lesson. In reading this at face value, I felt like many of you that all this boy wanted was to show the BOR that they were wrong with an in-your-face attitude. I assume that most of us hold jobs in real life. In real life sometimes you have to accept things from people in charge that may not be right or fair. That's the way it is. We all, after all, have to put food on the table and sometimes that means that we have to put up with people that (to keep it PG) are jerks. So when your boss reams you for not putting the cover letter on the TPS report, just remember back to the time during that BOR where you learned to just sew the dang patch on and show up the following week. kwim?

[Twocubdad]

You guys are a bunch of jackasses.

 

It used to be a convention of this forum that we treated posts from virtual Scouts with the same courtesy we would show an actual youth wandering up to the adult campfire.

 

Instead we call him names, use his question to saw on our favorite logs and devolve into the usual arguments among ourselves. Do we need to remind ourselves why we're here?

 

* * * * * * * * * * *

 

Calvin, if you're still reading I promised you a full answer and here it is: As others have noted, there is no such policy. In fact, there is no national requirement that you even own a Scout uniform at all. [NJ -- you're asking for us to disprove a negative. Can you provide a policy which requires uniforms?] There are many economically disadvantaged Scouts and troops who operate great Scout programs without a uniform in site. Certainly there is no requirement that the badge be sewn on. Badge Magic works. You can even just iron the snot out of most badges and the plastic coating on the back works like hot-melt glue (but I don't recommend that). I've worn badges using velcro, I've even stapled some on in a pinch.

 

Troop tradition and policy is another matter. Our troop is a full uniform troop -- hat, necker, shirt, belt, pants, socks. The expectation is guys going for a BOR arrive wearing their merit badge sash, any special awards (like medals and cords), dress shoes and make a special effort to have their uniform looking sharpe. But if they don't, they're not going to be declined. I've seen some of the older Scouts do an "intervention" on a younger guy going up for a board where they'll start grabbing hats or neckers out of lost and found, take a belt off another kid, maybe staple the right patches on a guy's uniform. It makes the point of what the troop expects, but does so in a very positive and helpful way.

 

Personally, I think your review board was over the line. As Scoutmaster, I'd be having a discussion with the troop committee chairman and the advancement chairman about what is important. The method of afixing badges isn't. If the board of review members were being more Scout-like, they would have helped you find a needle and thread and help you sew the patch on while they proceeded with the board. That's the example of servant leadership I'd like to see from adult Scouters.

 

Since you're asking about policy, your review board should have explained to you why you were being declined for advancement and what you needed to do to pass. They apparently did that. However, they should have also given you the procedure for appealing their decision to the next level.

 

But that brings me back to my question to you: what do you plan to do with the information?

 

Clearly, one route is to sew the patch on and reschedule the board -- "go along, to get along" as someone said. Honestly, that's not a bad approach in this situation. Honestly, I don't think this is a hill I'd be willing to die on.

 

Or you could appeal the board's decision to the full troop committee or even the district, council or national advancement committee. Sooner or later you will win. SOMEONE will arrive at the correct answer which should be in your favor.

 

But consider the costs. It takes a lot of time, effort and heartache to go through an appeal, for both you and the troop leaders. How many bridges will you burn in the process? Are these the folks you are counting on to help see you through Eagle? Are these the folks who have already devoted a great deal of time and effort to you and the troop? You can run the math and reach your own conclusion.

 

But here's my best Scoutmasterly advice. Take the middle road. Sew the patch on and reschedule your Board of Review. Have your uniformed professionally cleaned and pressed. Polish you shoes. Study all the stuff they may ask you about. Show up for the board and rock their world.

 

After you've earned Life and SEWN IT ON, find a quiet time to sit down with your Scoutmaster or maybe the troop committee chairman. Summer camp should be full of opportunities. Very politely and dispassionately ask him or her how this policy came about. Make your case -- it's a rather petty thing to deny someone a BOR over, it wastes a lot of folk's time, it's embarassing for a Scout to be turned down for a rank, and it is contrary to national BSA policy. Listen to what he/she says. Ask if this is something you should bring up before the PLC or maybe even the troop committee.

 

As some point, maybe you will effect a change in the troop. Or maybe you will come to the point you need to just drop it. But in the process keep it Friendly, Courteous, Loyal and Scout-like.

 

Good luck to you.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Eagle92]

NJ,

 

Here is the quote in reference to what can be worn at a BOR. Page 29 of the ACPP

 

The Scout should be neat in his appearance and should be in a coat and tie or his uniform ( emphasis mine), which should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board.

 

All,

 

Now in reference to the OP. Some could interpret that the badge being pinned on is not "worn properly." hence the request to reschedule.

 

iamcalvin,

 

Me personally I'd cut a little slack for someone going for Tenderfoot, maybe even Second Class (depending upon how long they have been in scouting). But once you go for First Class and above, more is expected. You are a leader in your troop, and the younger scouts look to you as an example. And as a leader you want to set the best example.

 

Hopefully you've realized that badge bond, or whatever they are calling it now, that you used really is horrible stuff, doesn't work as well as it is advertised, and can leave you high and dry when you need it. Good old needle and thread has been around ages, doesn't take that much time or skill, and in a few minutes

 

As for the reason why they denied you, the BOR does need to write down the reason, a suggested plan for improvement, and give you guidance in the matter.

 

Now I admit I've sat on one BOR that denied a scout his rank. At the time I didn't know about the rule explaining the denial, so one wasn't written. But we explained why we couldn't give him the rank (minor technicality he was short on the time requirements), told him what he needed to do (come back and see us the next week), and we followed up with him (OK not really as he approached us to sign off in his book; we told him that we would just sign off after he met the requirements)

 

Good luck.

 

 

[BDPT00]

Good advice, Twocubdad. It's more friendly and a lot longer, but the same message as the rest of us jackasses.

BDPT00

[lrsap]

Call me crazy, but isn't it possible he was just curious if the rule existed? Or are we to assume all boys in Scouting are potential horrible creatures that, if not for our adult wonderfulness, would devolve into rude, insolent man-apes?

[BadenP]

Twocub

 

You really do live in a plastic bubble, if you could not see this question for what it was then you truly are naive and gullible. Calvin was no kid posting to this forum but someone who knew exactly how to manipulate certain responses from a select group of overly opinionated and self rightgeous scouters. As far as jackasses are concerned twocub this time you are at the head of the line you got had and got had bad, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Eamonn]

Hi Calvin,

A lot of times when someone wants to know if there is a hard and fast rule that is written in black and white they want to use the rule as some sort of ammo to get back at someone or bash them over the head with.

I kinda think this is what your trying to do? I might be wrong.

I'll bet while you have been in Scouting that you have heard some of us old people go on about "Building Character".

For me as an old guy this talks to me about doing the right thing.

Not because someone has taken the time to write down a bunch of stuff, but just because it's the right thing to do.

To tell the truth I know that had I been at the BOR that you attended, the patch thing wouldn't have been a big deal.

Sadly someone made it into a big deal.

More sadly you got caught up in all of this and it kinda seems that you are a little upset.

This patch and where it was or where it wasn't really isn't a big deal.

What you do next is a very big deal.

You can get upset and the more you dwell on it, the bigger and more silly it will become.

Or you can learn from it all.

You already know what the board expects, so fixing that ought not be a big problem.

But the more important lesson lies in you knowing how you felt and remembering how you felt.

Just as there isn't a rule about how badges are fixed to a uniform there isn't a rule about how we go about being kind to each other, how we treat each other.

All to often when something happens to us we feel that we can't wait to return the favor and hit someone else with the same type of thing. - Some kind of crazy idea that because it happened to me, then it's OK for me to do it to someone else.

Calvin, I hope you can get past this.

Attend the next BOR looking sharp and dressed to kill.

Then bowl them over with a great smile and how well prepared you are. Then when the time comes for you to serve either as a board member or maybe even the guy who is interviewing someone for a job in the real world and the guy has a stain on his pants or is a Scout with a badge that isn't where it should be. You will remember just how you felt about the people on this board.

Adults aren't always right, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn something from them.

Good Luck, please post when you become a Life Scout.

Eamonn.

[jtswestark]

This is what I love about these forums. Some kid posts a question of a situation he experienced and we try and psychoanalyze the whole reasoning and go off about how hes being oppressed (DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!). All we know is what he told us and off we go surmising that the BOR is out of hand and we need more youth involved and how the world is all screwed up since weve strayed from the word.

 

Arent we forgetting there are two sides to every story? Maybe this patch was the final straw of this kids Scout spirit, or maybe he was doomed from the start and this was just one more reason pointed out. Maybe this was one of a laundry list of aspects the troop was not happy with him as a Star Scout wanting to be a Life Scout. Set the standard and hold it: we have a responsibility as adults to maintain this program as was done for us. Can any of you that were Scouts as kids recall getting away with a rank patch that just fell off in a BOR? We wont accept Eagle Mills but are piling on about BORs putting up unnecessary barriers. Those of you that love turning this stuff into evangelical flames against the great mislead, Ill take this lesson over many things we try to get across in Scouting! How many times in life is he going to be sat down in front of a group of close minded, stodgy, grumpy adults that are going to determine if he gets that scholarship, gets that degree, gets that job or promotion, or He who runs the board makes the rules. So whether or not Calvin is a real kid, this is for all those other kids and adults that dont get it: Learn your lesson now Calvin or youre going to be fighting up hill the rest of your life. Is that really how you want it to go?

 

I had a very similar scenario with a Life Scout I refused to sign off on Scout Spirit for Eagle. My final straw was how during the last month or so hed come running in 30 second before each meeting with his shirt balled up in his hand. Within 30 seconds of closing hed have it balled up again running his way out the door, foregoing any of the activities and duties before and after meetings. I wasn't buying that as acceptable Scout Spirit and no BOR should either. But what does he tell Dad when he gets home that night? He turned me down for Eagle because I dont wear my shirt enough. And off we go to the races

 

[bnelon44]

It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. He should wear as much of it as he owns, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as the members of his troop, team, crew, or ship wear it. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in his appearance and dressed appropriately, according to his means, for the milestone marked by the occasion.

 

So Calvin, upon reading this, was wearing a badge pinned on your uniform wearing it properly?(This message has been edited by bnelon44)