the rubber stamp

[qwazse]

Niel_b,

 

Jesus was always getting accused of breaking rules like working on the Sabbath or eating with gentiles. I guess if he was a scout he might get his advancement denied for not being reverent enough.

 

Jesus always asserted that he was acting in accordance with his own beliefs. As a youth he was, by all but the most partisan accounts, a good Jewish boy. He might get docked for not getting a parental release to hang back at Temple. (After all boy scouts love paperwork. ) But he's pass on Reverent.

 

Not saying you shouldn't tell a boy that breaking the 3rd Commandment in your presence is offensive to you, and they are supposed to be sensitive to other people's beliefs. I just am not sure it is grounds for holding back their advancement.

 

As I explained earlier, this has NOTHING to do with what's offensive to me. My preface: "If a boy says he believes in God, attends church twice as often as his religion requires, keeps fasts, prays, reads scripture, etc .." This means that THE BOYS OWN definition of duty (not mine) puts this requirement on him.

 

My experience is that a boy who cusses effusively probably never grasped how offensive it is according their own stated belief system. Sometimes delaying rank advancement for a week is all a boy needs to start apologizing for -- and eventually ridding himself of -- this irreverent habit.

 

But my real point is that I give a pass to a young boy who harbors serious doubts but still attends worship with his family and performs his religious duty without complaint while he sorts it all out. I don't consider doing so to be a "rubber stamp."

 

BD, it is fun when the boys "get it".

[Eamonn]

Life would be a lot easier if everything was black or white and the good guys wore white hats and the bad guys wore white hats.

Sadly that's not how it is.

We spend a lot of time lost someplace between the black or the white area.

For me Scouting is all about relationships.

Not every Lad that has joined a unit that I have been involved with likes me and a few have found out that Scouting just wasn't something that was for them.

When that happened, most times they quit.

I do believe that every Lad should have the opportunity to join Scouting. I also believe that Scouting is not always right for every Lad.

The Lads that choose to stick around are in many ways lumbered. They are stuck with me. They don't have a vote to remove me or replace me.

This might seem a little unfair, but that's the way it is.

 

Little Lads who join a Troop that I'm in as a rule start off using their Sunday manners.

They yearn and want my approval.

I want and yearn for them to do well, have fun and enjoy what we are doing.

The truth is that I care about them.

Over time the Sunday manners fade and we both get to know each other better.

A lot of times I'll know who did something without even having to ask.

While maybe they might not admit it, but they know that I know. I also think that they have some idea about how I'm going to react and am going to do about whatever it was.

We become in some ways like HWMBO and myself.

We grow up knowing each other.

I look at being allowed to be part of their growing and their understanding and sometimes their confusion as a great privilege. I feel truly blessed.

I have standards which over time they get to know.

They might not always agree with them, but this isn't a democracy!

I really do want these Lads to get as much out of having been a Scout as they can possible get out.

I know that if I sign off on something then that something has been done.

My feeling is that to do otherwise is short changing the Scout.

Over the years I've had to deal with a lot of situations.

I've seen Lads who were the greatest little Lads up until they were 15 or 16 fall in with the wrong crowd and land in all sorts of trouble.

Some were happy to e where they were at.

I knew in my heart of hearts that they were "Gone" and no matter what I wasn't going to fix what was now wrong.

There have been others where I have gone and testified in juvenile court for.

They have returned to the Troop.

They seem to know that they have not only got into trouble, but they have let themselves down and by doing that they have hurt me.

I can't stop caring just because a Lad has done something dumb.

Still there is a period of time before we can get back to where we once were.

Strange thing is that more often than not in many ways we become closer than we were before.

I have talked with Scouts who have messed up and we have agreed that they did indeed mess up and also agreed that they need time to win back the trust that they have lost.

I don't think of this as any sort of a punishment.

More along the lines of a time to rebuild.

 

 

Before we think about " The Rubber Stamp" we might want to think about The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America:

 

"It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping to instill values in young people and, in other ways, to prepare them to make ethical choices during their lifetime in achieving their full potential. The values we strive to instill are based on those found in the Scout Oath and Law."

Very often when I feel that I've lost my way or am confused I take a long hard look at this.

Ea.

[Oak Tree]

I can think of a variety of reasons that I might withhold signing the Scout Spirit requirement. So far I haven't had to do it.

 

If the Scout became openly hostile to Scouting and was only there because his parent was demanding it, I think I wouldn't sign. All the better to help the boy.

If a Scout was openly involved in some very unScoutlike behavior in a troop setting, we'd have to talk about it. I'd listen to him explain what happened, and he could tell me whether he thought he was right or not, and whether it was displaying Scout Spirit - and we might even come to some agreement on a delay.

 

The harder issues are the ones where I don't have direct knowledge. I know that some number of the Scouts swear when the adults aren't around. I've had a report on at least two, but probably just because of circumstances. I haven't heard him swear. Unless I get a report that it is really openly bothering someone, I'm not sure I'd hold him up. For all I know, some of the other Scouts I've already approved are doing the same thing.

 

Likewise, not sure that I'd fail a Scout for an admitted one time trial of marijuana. I'd talk about it with him, ask him why, listen to what happened - in essence I want to evaluate this one item in the context of the Scout's entire conduct. I'm much more likely to have an issue if there are multiple indicators that things are going badly. But I like Eamonn's story of the kid who stole the donkey. That just seems like a one-time prank to me - I doubt I would have seen any reason to fail him for that.

 

Arrest for a crime would be an issue.

 

Maybe I'm a rubber stamp. But it's a large troop, and I want to be consistent in my treatment of the Scouts. I expect them to behave with some semblance of civilization while they're around me. I don't want to start witch hunts, nor do I want to get all the Scouts into a "can't talk to Mr. Oak Tree" mode where they're afraid to talk to me.

 

Attendance at meetings - I'm a rubber stamp. Don't really consider that to be part of Scout Spirit (nor is it, really, by the BSA's definition, by my reading.)

Uniform wear - The great majority of Scouts remove the uniform the instant they are permitted to. If a Scout refused to button or tuck in his shirt when asked, that could be a problem. All of the Scouts have a uniform, so I want them to wear it when it's expected - if someone openly declared he wasn't going to wear the uniform, I'd wonder. Don't really ever see failing a Scout on Scout Spirit due to the uniform.

Vandalizing cars - I'd guess this might hold up things. Some of this would depend on how much time the Scout has left. It would certainly depend on what "vandalizing" meant, and how it was known to be him.

 

Mostly I'm with Eamonn and packsaddle - we do our best to work with the Scouts and their families and see if we can work things out and rebuild.

[evmori]

Rubber stamping is just as bad as those who create 1,000,000 extra steps to everything! We need to be somewhere in the middle and that middle depends on your unit. We need to follow the rules and guidelines set up and not create artificial barriers.

 

Happy National Day of Prayer - A Might Fortress is Our God!

[Basementdweller]

For me this thread is an exploration of the boundary for what is acceptable or standard practice.

 

It is evident there really is no standard and as a general rule both the religious and scout spirit aspect are an auto pass.

 

Rarely is a scout rank held up for any reason.

 

Double jeopardy, please. The kid shoplifts and gets caught, No way is he going to get a pass on scout spirit. He can cool his heels a couple of months.....same goes for vandalizing a car....... If simply pass him because he is being punished twice, you are doing him a disservice.

 

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I guess I am confused, if he vandalizes a car or gets caught shoptlifting, then he gets arrested and I had thought one would wait on anything scouting to see how it was resolved

[CalicoPenn]

OGE - I admit to being a bit confused myself.

 

The OP states that the lad was caught and arrested - but then states that the lad thinks he "got away with it". I suppose I figured that this meant that the lad was arrested but that the charges were dropped or he was not found guilty - we just don't have that further piece of information - but the way it's written does make it seem as if something happened after the arrest that isn't being shared with us.

[Basementdweller]

So lets just say a scout is convicted of shoplifting from the local wallyworld.

 

 

Do you hold up advancement?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

well, yeah

[Lisabob]

Basement, playing hypotheticals can be fun sometimes - so here goes.

 

Scenario: kid gets arrested & convicted for shoplifting from "wallyworld." Do you hold up advancement?

 

Me: Probably, but the devil is in the details. In the short term, yes I would hold up advancement, probably (at minimum) until some time after whatever punishment is court-imposed has been served.

 

After that, it depends a lot on other factors. How old is the boy? Why did he shoplift? Is this the first time he has been caught? Are there other illegal behaviors in his recent past or present? Does he seem to understand why what he did was wrong? How does he propose to make amends? What does he think he needs to do, to rebuild his reputation as a person of character?

 

A boy who gets caught, learns from his errors in judgment, and grows up as a result would be a boy for whom I'm more likely to say "ok, now let's move on from this." A boy who is sullen, non-responsive, shows no signs of reflection or change in his attitude, or for whom this is a regular, repeat occurrence, will find a tougher road ahead in terms of advancement.

 

But what I wouldn't do, is this: A boy is nearing his 18th birthday & readying for his EBOR. This is a boy who has had a rowdy past and, years ago, did some really dumb things, for which he was caught, and convicted (like shoplifting). He learned from it, changed his ways, etc., but he's still sort of rough around the edges and maybe I really don't like this boy much. So, just prior to, or maybe AT his EBOR, I start dredging up past events (going years back, not weeks) as justification for not allowing him to earn Eagle now - at a point where it is too late for him to do anything to change my mind because he's now 18. Maybe I further justify it by saying that allowing him to be an Eagle tarnishes the image of Eagle Scouts, since "everyone knows" this boy's past.

 

That sort of punitive re-opening of past issues that were satisfactorily dealt with in the past - that, to me, is probably not appropriate.

 

 

By the way, I have made a decision to put the brakes on one boy's advancement (in a BOR for Life) when the boy - a regular troop bully & instigator - could not answer a single question with more than a grunt and shrug, didn't seem to have a clue about what leadership means, and wouldn't look anybody in the eye or even sit up and act interested. I was the lone voice saying "hold on now." The troop convened a different BOR for the boy (including all but me from the original BOR) the following week and awarded the boy Life at that time.

 

After that, I was not asked to sit on many BORs by that troop committee. Which is probably a good thing, because there were a couple of other boys for whom I would have said "not yet" too, based on their behaviors. What I learned is that my standards and the common standards of others in the troop were not well-aligned. I no longer serve that troop.

 

 

[qwazse]

What if the next day the scout performs CPR and revives his cell mate? Do you get the stamp back out?

[Basementdweller]

Qwar...The right is expected, the wrong is not. Do you think the court will let him go because he saved a life?????

 

If he saved a life we will be rewarded enough, especially in scouting.

 

I am not talking years in the past. I agree that EBOR it doesn't need addressed, unless it was very recent. But Scout is convicted last week of shoplifting, next BOR it is addressed.

 

 

[evmori]

So lets just say a scout is convicted of shoplifting from the local wallyworld. Do you hold up advancement?

 

Yup. This could be a felony depending on the $$$ amount. And if he does revive his cell mate using CPR the next day advancement is still upheld.

[evmori]

That last line should read "And if he does revive his cell mate using CPR the next day advancement is still held up."

[Basementdweller]

I got a laugh out of the tv news lead off story.

 

"Boy Scout Saves Cell Mates Life".

 

"Boy Scout caught and convicted of stealing beef jerky saves cell mates life. Cell mate was trying to swallow a balloon filled with drugs when it became lodged in his throat. Shop lifter scout knew what to do and performed the Heimlich maneuver and saved jail drug dealers life."

 

now that is funny. If he is in jail....no need to worry about BOR.....He will have to ask his parole officer about leaving town for a camp out.

 

 

I am gonna bet national would love that.