the rubber stamp

[Basementdweller]

Many of you view my opinions and attitudes as harsh. They are a product of my enviorment.

 

There have been a number of threads discussing scout spirit and reverence. Both subjective in evaluation for rank and BOR purposes.

 

I am reading from my fellow scouters that they ignore these when it comes to advancement. So does the kid vandlizing cars get his rank held up?

 

The question I am asking is.........what would make you delay or pause a scouts advancement?

 

Reading about eagle doing drugs on campouts, stealing and the list goes on. I wonder if we are doing our moral duty as leaders letting this go on

[OldGreyEagle]

hey this one is easy, doing drugs? vandalizing cars?

 

Either the scout or I would be gone

[SeattlePioneer]

Reverance?

 

I draw thwe line at a Scout who gets up and announces in a loud voice that "There is no God." "I'm an atheist" and such.

 

I had a young Cub Scout do that a year or so ago.

 

That I do discourage.

 

 

Generally speaking, my standard religion in Scouting is:

 

 

1) We encourage Scouts to respect the religious traditions of their families

 

2) We encourage Scouts to respect the religious traditions of other people.

 

 

For Boy Scouts and older, I'm flexible on #1 if they have religious ideas they have developed themselves.

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

I guess I am after more person experience.....

 

 

What warrants holding up or delaying advancement.

[neil_b]

First of all, make sure you really know the facts. Not knowing all the facts about this vandalizing incident, I am not quick to pass judgement. I have heard of people pressing charges for somebody writing on their car window with a washable marker even though there was no permanent damange to the vehicle.

 

Personally, I would not hold back a boy's advancement because of a harmless prank that somebody got upset over (if that is the case). Also, the fact (from the previous thread) that the dad of the boy who was offended is active in the troop should not be an issue.

 

Nor would I hold up advancement over a boy not liking to wear his uniform shirt or whether I personally like him or not. I have heard (probably on these forums) of a boy being held back because his hair was too long. Give me a break. Everybody has their pet peeves, but they should not enter into it.

 

I feel that punishments should be handed out when the incident occurs, not months after the fact in a BoR. If he's already been punished, punishing him again is double jeopardy.

 

If you feel the need to kick him out, then get it over with and maybe he can find another troop and maybe rehabilitate and finish Eagle someplace else.

 

Don't keep him in the troop if you feel you could never sign off on his advancement. That is just stringing him along.

[qwazse]

I am reading from my fellow scouters that they ignore these when it comes to advancement. ...

 

Not so.

 

If a boy says he believes in God, attends church twice as often as his religion requires, keeps fasts, prays, reads scripture, etc ...

 

But routinely takes the Lord's name (yours, mine, or his, it doesn't matter) in vain. He is irreverent. He does not advance until he can go a day without sputtering "OMGs."

[neil_b]

Basement,

 

It had better be something serious.

 

Holding up a 17 year old's advancement who is trying to go for Eagle is big deal. At that point you might as well have kicked him out of the troop.

 

On the other hand, the younger boys may be very sensitive. Holding up a boy's advancement if handled poorly may really upset him and he may quit in shame and frustration.

 

So, never take it lightly. I think if what you're wanting is to punish a boy there are better ways.

[neil_b]

qwazse,

 

The BSA definition of reverent is: "A Scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion."

 

There is no mention of not taking God's name in vain. The bit about taking God's name in vain is the 3rd Commandment from the Bible and therefore belongs to a particular set of religions. Scouting is non-sectarian, and that is why they don't get very specific about what it means to be reverent.

 

If the boy feels he is doing his best to satisfy his personal religious obligations and demonstrates that in tangible ways (like attending church) it is not for you to impose your personal religious beliefs on him as a Scouter.

 

 

 

[skeptic]

From the perspective of SM, it is imperative that I take my responsibility seriously in regard to holding a scout to a consistent, but fair standard. That is delineated by the Oath and Law primarily. Weighing the performance of an individual is very subjective, and needs to consider age, maturity (some older scouts are still very immature), special circumstances such as diagnosed issues or diseases, and honesty with the scout and his parents as to my expectations. When a boy starts, it is pretty simple; I review the guidelines, the Oath,Law, Motto, and Slogan, explaining my views on how he meets these general guidelines. I try to establish that it is his "best", based on "I will do my best", that will be my measurement.

 

From there, it becomes a constant weighing of observations, things brought to me by other leaders or scouts, and so on. If a situation arises that requires more than a simple reminder, then it is important it be dealt with sooner than later. If it is extremely serious, my actions usually are quick, but then brought to the parent committee for review, which in turn may, or may not lead to additional accountability of the scout or family, or even an override of my first response.

 

The most important thing is that these expectations need to be consistent, fair, and start from day one. Yes, age and maturity, as noted, are factors. Extremely serious issues should include whatever outside individuals needed, and definitely need to be reported in writing to the council. If a boy, or leader, is asked to leave, that too should be reported with details to the council, and kept by the unit on file. This rarely occurs, but it can unfortunately.

 

In almost 34 years as a SM, we have had fewer than a half dozen issues leading to expulsion; but we have likely had 10-15 that either held up rank advancement, led saw probation, or a scout leaving due to the review with myself or committee. There have been two that were considerations at Eagle boards, but did not keep the boy from receiving the award. Both of these are now adults, and they have told me that their experiences dealing with the problems were major turning points in their lives.

 

We do no one, scout, troop, families, or the BSA any favors by sweeping things under the carpet, though giving a second or third chance is fine in most cases, as long as the problem is still dealt with and the scout knows what needs to be corrected. Scouts are no different than other boys, except that they supposedly are honor bound to live to a higher code. A major point of holding an adult leadership position is to "actually lead", to set the example, and to do what needs to be done, even if you know it will cause discomfort, emotional upheaval, or flak to fly.

 

And so the sermon is done. JMHO(This message has been edited by skeptic)

[resqman]

Most often when someone posts here if they should hold up rank advancement, they have waited until the very last second. They somehow feel that the scout has not performed up to the standard and they have to make a decision to make a final stand. The problem here is the adult was not doing their job much earlier.

 

Scouts don't all of a sudden earn a rank. It usually takes months, sometimes a year. If a scout is demonstrating habits and actions that are not appropriate, then address the concern when it happens. Hold an SM conference and explain that the action is not acceptable, what is acceptable behavior, and set specific goals/achievements that show the scout has understood and changed the behavior. If adult leadership is avoiding a difficult decision only to balk at the last moment, then they are at fault and should sign the paperwork because they accepted the behavior and have approved the behavior by not changing it long before the signature is due.

 

It ain't the scouts fault, it is the adults fault. Fix it long before you have to sign.

[CalicoPenn]

I dislike the whole "rubber stamp" argument, and I do so because I believe it expresses a distrust in other Scouters. If my definition of Scout Spirit or Reverent or Trustworthy or Morally Straight disagrees with your defintion, then chances are you might think I'm just rubber stamping Scouts through the ranks.

 

For some folks, a kid caught shoplifting at 13 will never be Eagle material, even if the kid cleans up his act and if I were to approve him for Eagle at 17, those folks would claim I'm rubber stamping him. If I spent those years working with the lad and seeing him atone for his actions and clean up his act, I'd fine that pretty insulting.

 

I think we need to be more sensitive about tossing the term "rubber stamp" around when dealing with the subjective requirements. Attending a 1 hour First Aid Merit Badge class and getting the Merit Badge? I'll call that rubber stamping. But I have to ask - is a quiet lad who stays home playing video games in his basement all day showing more Scout Spirit than a lad that volunteers every week at a food bank but lets slip the random OMG or curse word? I know which one I'd think is getting more from Scouts, and is showing more Scout Spirit.

 

If I'm going to delay or pause a Scouts advancement, it's going to have to be something serious to warrant it - something I've either witnessed first hand, have reliable witnesses seeing it first hand (no "I heard from someone at school that Scout Tommy does drugs"), the Scout has confessed to, or the Scout has been found guilty of.

 

An accusation isn't really enough for me. In the other thread, I see a Scout accused of vandalizing another car - no detail on how it was vandalized (tying tin cans to the bumper can be considered vandalism in some places - I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about something like that), and with the statement that "the Scout thinks he got away with it", I'd want to know what's behind that statement - charges dropped? Found not guilty? No evidence to prove it up?

 

If it's that serious, I'm not just holding up advancement - I'm removing the lad from the unit. If I don't feel it's serious enough to warrant removal, then I can't think of anything that would make me prevent a Scout from reaching the ultimate goal.

 

[Basementdweller]

Calico.....I said rubber stamp because that is what it looks like to me. Is the scout here?

 

Again, I am looking at how to prevent the big life and eagle blow ups that seem fairly common. I would like to see it dealt with on a tenderfoot-first class level.

 

Scout spirit.... Would you delay advancement because the scout never shows up to the meeting never wearing his scout shirt........Hiding when it is his turn to clean up the dishes........complains and whines while completing tasks. Does not show up regularly to meetings unless it is his BOR night? or attends and spends the entire meeting texting or playing with his cell phone.

 

Don't know just asking.

 

In my future is a SM position.........(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Tampa Turtle]

To preface, I mostly work with 1st and 2nd year scouts as a ASM.

 

Duty to God - If a boy is honest and has doubts and aint just feeling it--I give him the benefit of a doubt of course. I ask him to keep looking for the answer --be not so sure at his age if he know it --be respectful of his families and others beliefs. If he was shouting "there is no God!" yea I would have a problem too. Unfortunately many of the boys I work with have very weak parental religious role models. Also how are the Adult Leaders modeling Duty to God. I would crack down on the OMG's as well--they are disrespectful of others at the very least.

 

Uniform - I read in my old (1942?) scout manual (I think) that it mentioned that young boys like to wear the uniform because they identify with older boys and men and older boys resist wearing it to show independence. I think that is still true. There are other pressures here. During Vietnam I was a cub and called "baby killer" for wearing the uniform by much older kids. I stopped wearing it and was kicked out by my Cubmaster. So my personal policy is they better wear it and properly at scout events and meetings and after is there own decision.

 

Scout Spirit -- So many boys today are such smarts a__ses I must urge them to embrace scout spirit in everyday behavior...again the culture makes this difficult. If a kid has a big "incident" I discuss it with them and contrast with how he should have acted. Boys do some really bone-headed things sometimes, too; however I would hold such a boy's feet to the fire during scout spirit, BOR, and SM conf time.

 

On a tactical level I will not sign off, or let someone sign off without a protest, a requirement if I think a lad cheated or had a parent do it. There is still some "cub scout behavior" from boys and parents and some really half-assed attempts at meeting requirements and I have made boys redo it correctly or show me more evidence. On occasions some boys have missed a COH date and I got some parental flack. (That said if I think a boy made an honest attempt and did his own work I am a soft touch)

 

I working hard to re-orient my thinking about boys who seem to be "bad scouts" as boys who need more help. I am surprised that some boys just seem easier to like than others.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

If he never shows up until its BOR time, how did he complete the required tasks to advance to the next level? If he completes the requirements, he completes them, the time it takes is irrelevant. Thats T-1 of course.

 

First Class on he also has his POR and that you hold him accountable for, or not. But if you don't hold him accountable from First CLass to Star, or from Star to Life, don't be surprised if you get the same behavior from Life to Eagle.

 

Make sure he does his POR to the level explained to him when he got it and along the way as well

 

If you make him accountable for his actions at the First Class level going forward, Life to Eagle will never be an issue(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[Beavah]

I feel that punishments should be handed out when the incident occurs, not months after the fact in a BoR

 

Not receiving an award is not punishment. It's just not receiving an award. A lad doesn't get valedictorian or MVP or Eagle Scout is not being punished. It's just that he hasn't met the expectations or requirements for those awards.

 

So a boy who vandalized a car might be convicted and punished by the state, and might also be punished by his parents. That's not "double jeopardy", and if yeh think it is then yeh must be one of those folks the news is reporting on who would fail a citizenship test. . If a scout troop then decides he's violated his conditions of membership or has not met the expectations for Eagle rank because of his behavior, that is right and proper.

 

Now for kids, two things often happen, eh? We don't hold kids fully responsible for their actions. We expect 'em to make mistakes and to learn. So we ground them more than imprison them. When kids are sorry, and sometimes even when they're just sheepish, we give 'em second chances. That's a normal impulse. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Da other thing that happens is that people often feel it's inappropriate to discipline someone else's child, eh? So if da parent doesn't do it, the scout leaders tend to uncomfortably let it slide. That's lack of moral fortitude on da scout leader's part, but perfectly natural. Nobody likes conflict.

 

Both good and reasonable instincts can be da wrong choice, eh? The message that they can send to the boys is that the adults don't walk the walk, they don't really care about those values they talk about. Teenage boys have a very acute sense of Justice. And it's really disappointing to see that a lad hasn't come round, and has in fact manipulated or taken advantage of the kindness or the weakness of adult leaders.

 

So as an adult, yeh look at that and learn from it, and promise yourself and (silently) the rest of the lads that you'll never make that mistake again. You'll demand justice and contrition as part of forgiveness. You'll be courageous for the sake of teaching the right lessons, even if it's socially awkward, even if it causes conflict.

 

If yeh let it slide up to now and gave your word that things were OK, then yeh live up to your word. But yeh don't make that mistake again.

 

In da future, you take the "Scout Spirit" requirement as an honest-to-goodness requirement, and if a boy has not yet demonstrated living by the Scout Oath commensurate with the rank he's seeking, yeh say no. And explain to him why, and help him improve.

 

Not earning an award is not a punishment. It's just not yet deserving to be rewarded. Our job is to teach character and citizenship, and yeh can't dodge that responsibility. Yeh were selected and empowered by a Community Organization for your character and commitment and judgment, and yeh are expected to use 'em.

 

Beavah