Sign or resign

[acco40]

Think really hard about this one. What are you being asked to sign off on? You state that you are being asked to sign off on an Eagle Project.

 

In our troop, we had the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair as well as the Unit Advancement Committee "chair" sign the workbook cover sheet. We had the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair sign as approval to begin the project to indicate that project plans were reviewed and approved.

 

Those sign-offs have nothing to do with wearing the uniform, Scout Spirit, etc.

 

I agree with Lisabob and ctbailey.

[Crew21_Adv]

Crossramwedge,

 

Greetings!

 

Before I got to the end, I took a look at the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, similar to Eammon and jet526, there is no CC signature for completing the project, but there is a CC signature for the Rank Application.

 

My own opinion.

I have met a few rough boys, but I only have really met one Scout, that I did not believe deserved Eagle Scout. But I was not in the signature order, nor on his EBOR. Now, in his early 20's, I hope that he is now maturing and appreciates the honor bestowed on him.

 

That being said. (Still my opinion) There are Eagle Scouts that Soar! Enough Said, their credentials speak for themselves. There are the swarm or nest of Eagle Scouts; like a powerful surge, becoming good to great citizens, doing great things in life.

 

And then, there are a handful of Eagle Scouts that never really take flight and flop around, more like Turkeys than Eagles. Some of those Eagle Scouts barely perform, barely camp, barely lead, and just marginally follow the Scout Oath and Law. Some of those guys will mature during their lifetime. Their own trail to Eagle may become a little clearer in the adulthood and they will become good model citizens with upstanding character.

 

In other forum post, I have commented how Scoutreach and other BSA programs are offering Scouting to state run youth disciplinary programs. There are Troops and leaders meeting in these institutions. On the humorous side, I have a Scouting buddy that says of boys in our neighborhood "Every boy needs Scouting! But, Scouting doesn't need every boy", which is more of a They need us more than we need them approach.

 

This dud of a Scout in Crossramwedge's troop may be a lousy kid today. But maybe in ten years, he may become a great adult, father and citizen. I hope this young man straightens out, realizes his past transgressions, and becomes a model citizen within his local community.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[neil_b]

I agree with others that "unit leader" means Scoutmaster, not CC.

 

I don't think a boy not liking the uniform is an issue. Evidently he wears it when he is required to, and if he takes it off at the first opportunity that's his business.

 

The vandalism is upsetting, but if it wasn't sufficient to kick him out of the troop why are you bringing it up now? You say you "goofed up", well two wrongs don't make a right. It would not be fair to approve his project and let him stay in the troop only to hold this past stuff against him right at the end.

 

BTW, how can you be both COR and CC? Makes no sense to me. Seems like you should resign one or the other regardless of this boy and what you do with him.

[BadenP]

Cross

 

Sorry to say this but your objections are too lttle and too late. If this kid was such a problem as you say then this should have been dealt with a long time ago starting with holding up his Life and maybe Star ranks until he straightend himself out. As the CC you should have been in closer contact with the SM on a regular basis, and especially when all these problems went down, but you did not do that, now frankly it is too late. You can refuse to sign but without the support of the SM and DAC it will be a meaningless and futile gesture.

[John-in-KC]

Neil,

 

The COR can also be CC. In fact, CC is the one member of a unit who can hold more than one registered position within the unit.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I suppose since today is the boy's birthday, the lot has been cast, but here's my two centsL

 

Don't sign. My recollection is that there is no qualification as to what your signature indicates. The app doesn't say, "I certify the candidate is a registered member of this unit and all the administrative stuff is in order." It just generically asks for your signature which, to my thinking, is a generic endorsement of the whole. If you can't give that endorsement, don't sign.

 

Personally, I would feel compelled to include a letter to the Scout explaining why. Yeah, that will probably just add gas to the fire, but I think it important. As Crew21 says, the kid may be a dud now, but maybe he will grow to be the man of character we hope for. That's less likely if his dad and the rest of the world keep making excuses and solving his problems for him. If you're going to make a stand on principle, make it meaningful. If you want this to be a wake up call for the lad, let him know why you're waking him up. I'd attach the letter to the application or otherwise make sure it gets to his Board of Review. Your reservations need to be part of the Board's deliberations.

 

Here's another thought -- What does the rest of the troop committee think? Generally speaking, the committee chair doesn't have any singular power, but should represent the full troop committee. Is there a concensus? (But I also understand a lot of troops committees are rather adhoc and aren't really in a position to make these sorts of decisions.)

 

Last, for heaven's sake, don't resign. This troop needs folks around who can fix this going forward.

[moosetracker]

Well Cross - This forum is an example of some of the questions, and those that will support you or not support you.. So means asking yourself if you can withstand the criticism..

 

Yes, you should have as COR, if not CC been all over the SM an the standard of program that he runs, and you with the CO could have choosen to remove the scout after the vandalism incident..

 

Yet I disagree on the time to not sign was on the Approval of the Eagle project. The approval is for the project, and if you feel it is worthwhile.. It is not about the scout at that time..

 

The Eagle application (which I believe is what Cross meant to say).. Is about if he met the requirements, and is a correct place to decide if you in good faith can sign that he has met the requirements.. (not just on paper, but in deed..)(although I agree there were many other correct places to stop the kid in his tracks.. Educate the SM & Committee of the level of excellence you want them to hold the scouts to.. etc..)

 

Me.. If I do not feel right about signing I would not.. I would stand my ground and state my case respectfully, and admit my mistakes for not catching this sooner.. But, if it is overturned and he get the Eagle, then calmly accept that the board who made this decision had some good reasons to do so.. Because it is a 50/50 shot.. But still I would not sign .. Why..

 

1) The anxiety of uncertainty you give this kid may give him pause to think about his actions.. (Maybe).. If there is enough of a bump, he will need to work to show some leadership to defend himself well. The board will ask him the questions, not his father, he must stand before them and answer wisely..

 

2) It will show the scouts in the troop, that there is consequnces for not living by the scout oath & law, but just going through the motions. It will allow them to have more pride in the award if they earn it.

 

3) It will give you a starting point to turn around and start demanding from the SM and all adult leaders that things are changing and the bar is being raised.. Then you can start working out how not to get stop scouts sooner who are not meeting the expectations.

 

4) You can still look your self in the mirror, because you stood up for your own principles and values..

 

I disagree with the statement, that maybe he is not worthy of the Eagle now, but might grow into it later.. So give it to him.. I have been told (and agree), that later in life a person who made Eagle can go down the wrong trail.. Drugs, murder etc.. only years after earning the award.. Once an Eagle always an Eagle is more in telling the Eagle that it is expected of them to stay on the right path, and be worthy of the title as they continue in life.. But the award is the award earned in youth.. You don't present it in hopes that they may someday "make good".. You present it because "Today" you are worthy of it.. Now go forth and fly right..

 

No wonder that we have so many unworthy Eagles out there.. Looking at past board comments that the BOR should just be a rubber stamp, the SM is the gateway.. the SM or designated person to sign off advancement, should do so when the do something for the first time.. Not when they show proficiency at it.. Scout Spirit should be signed off it the scout shows up, regardless of his actions, it is just attendance.. Now I know these are things that have been debated to pieces with many defending the need to require more then rubber-stamping.. But there are many who just believe in the rubber-stamp system.. It creates a loophole large enough to sail the QE2 through.. No wonder units find themselves sitting with a scouts Eagle application and saying to themselves.. Here is a scout truely unworthy..

 

And again, we get the rubber stampers.. Let him go through.. You should have stopped him at all the other points, although we rubber stampers would have told you that you can't do that either.. (Or maybe we got the early bird rubber stampers that are at war against the end game rubber stampers).. Still, the what to do and when to do it, and who can do it.. Is a cauldren of debate..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Tampa Turtle]

This is a toughie.

 

I would not sign but would expect a storm of you-know-what because the character issues were allowed to get this far. They can appeal and will probably get it. However, by not signing you send the correct signals to those who value the Eagle that it does matter.

 

I try hard to see the best in all the boys I work with but there are a few that seem to be turning out to be little rule weasels slinking their way to Eagle. If I can say objectively they have met the requirement than I have signed off. So I can see the conflict.

 

Either way you need to talk to the boy over these issues and concerns. Let us know what happens.

[Beavah]

Yah, way too late, eh? Our role as adults in bringing up lads of good character is an ongoing one. If yeh don't like the outcomes you're getting, yeh need to look to yourselves and da program that you're running, not try to jigger things at the last minute. If this lad was such a problem, why did yeh sign off for First Class or Star? Why did yeh approve him to go off and represent your troop by leading a project for the community? Shame on the committee and the SM for letting the lad get by without learning the only really important lessons we teach in scouting, and then whining about it afterward.

 

If yeh don't like the outcomes, you and the SM need to fix the program.

 

As for signatures, your signature on the form represents the approval of the unit committee on the boy's Eagle, not your personal opinion. If yeh have a personal opinion, write a letter of non-recommendation to the BOR. But da signature reflects the recommendation of the committee. So if your troop committee is recommending the boy, then you sign. If your troop committee is not recommending the boy because they don't feel he met da requirements, then yeh don't sign and on behalf of the committee you explain your decision in writing to the boy and the district, and let the appeal proceed.

 

Yeh only resign if da committee is consistently taking things in a direction you as CC don't want to go, so that they would be better served by having a different chair. Not over one disagreement.

 

Of course, as COR if yeh think the committee or SM is taking things in a direction at odds with da goals or values of the Chartered Organization, then yeh replace the committee.

 

Any way yeh cut it, your job as both CC and especially as COR is to look at your program, not micromanage one Eagle award.

 

Beavah

[qwazse]

Minimize the drama.

 

Focus on the one issue you're being asked to attest to: the project. Was it completed as planned? Did the boy show some leadership? Then sign.

 

If not, don't sign. There's no need to resign.

 

If there are issues that will come up at his board of review: make sure you yourself are focusing on the boy's tenure while at Life rank. If your concerns apply to that period, let the boy know which ones you will be bringing up at the board of review and expect him to have honest and thoughtful replies to each of them. If he is concerned that he may not, he should ask for some help at the SMC on how to reply to such things.

 

Your goal as CC at this point is to listen to this kid and get him to reflect on his sense of apathy. Try to find out if there is something in the troop that drove it.

 

What the dad, SM, or council think are superfluous.

 

[acco40]

The COR can also be CC. In fact, CC is the one member of a unit who can hold more than one registered position within the unit.

 

I believe you meant the COR is the one member of a unit who can hold more than one registered position. There are no Scoutmaster/Committee Chair folks.

[John-in-KC]

You're right, acco... thanks for the catch

[ScoutNut]

>>"As CC I am being asked to sign off on a Scouts Eagle project.">"I was there at the project and I really did not see him provide what I would call a leadership position to a great degree. His father has been the main thrust in the project.">"Besides that this kid does not care about scouting."

[SeattlePioneer]

Resfusing to sign on an Eagle project is a rarther tardy way of dealing with character issues that have manifested themselves throughout a Scout's tenure.

 

But the same people with those kinds of issues tend to have their way of skating through various requirements.

 

Personally, I don't really have an issue with refusing to sign off on such requirements.

 

Scouts can appeal to the council advancement committee and from there to national if they are denied. Maybe they should have to go through that process.

 

 

[ctbailey]

Seattle is 100% correct. this amounts to "sand bagging" the youth at the absolute very last minute.