Scout spirit

[moosetracker]

Well Basement you at least showed spine by standing up to him on Scout Spirit.. You probably should just make sure that the main adult leaders (SM, CC, COR) will make a strong wall and they will not find a weak link to get through.

 

Your right if you have a parent looking for the weakness in the requirements, and looking for loopholes they will find it. They are all over the place.

 

So Scout Spirit is what you need to use to back up the difference between being a true scout, and trying to cheat the system.

 

Also by holding him to the time he really spends (like you did).. Not counting overnights where he spent them at a motel. Only counting the time he actually worked at a service project (just make sure you do so fairly, and all scouts are only counting the time they actually work the service project.)

 

We had one boy who would sleep with a parent, but was otherwise a healthy scout. When his brother came in he was the same way. We left the troop for another while they were still young, so I hope they grew out of it.. But, I did give them some benefit of a doubt. There was something in the history of the Pack that a den Leader was violating youth protection and was arrested for it around the time these boys were in the pack. So they may have had some background reasons for it.

 

But, with or without a requirement to check-off, your adult leaders should get together and come up with a game plan of what you expect and require from "all" scouts during a campout.. And although this may be the only scout breaking the rules, make sure you fairly expect it followed by all scouts.

 

A Chore Roster is one suggestion to start implementing.. Have it organized by the Patrol Leader, and the duties equally divided between all the scouts going on the event.. This scout shouldn't be excluded from duties because he is only staying for an hour, or he isn't eating with the scouts. And Dad should not be allowed to do the chores for son. Of course, if he doesn't want cooking duties you can assign him to constant latrine duty.. I know with our patrols, that was the least favorite duty to be assigned to.

[CalicoPenn]

Granted, I may have been a bit harsh in my assessment, but too often we see unit leaders trying to use Scout Spirit as the catch-all to solve problems they themselves have created. It's a nifty way to try to absolve oneself of the responsibility for getting to this point.

 

The adult leaders have already let this family change the culture of the Troop. They did it by not sitting down with the dad (and the son) to provide clear expectations of how things work in the Troop. They did it by letting this family do things their way.

 

The adult leaders have now instituted a policy where the SM signs off on everything. Until this time, what they were doing was probably working out very well. They've now taken responsibilities that were entrusted with the PL's and SPL (and ASM's) - how does that show that the adults find these lads to be trustworthy? Who failed in this case - the PL's and SPL or the Adult Leaders? Hint - the folks that failed aren't under eighteen.

 

"Show me in the requirement, that he can't sleep with DAD, he helped set the tent up, I think he unrolled it, but that is still helping." Yep, it may not be in the requirements but is it typical in the unit for boys to sleep in the same tents as their dads? Is it typical in the unit for boys not to tent with their patrols? If not, congratulations, a new tradition has been created for the Troop. And unrolling a tent is helping to set it up? Is that the same standard that has been set for the other boys, or is this a new, lower standard? Heck, if that's the standard, I'd start signing off the boys who carried the tent from the car to the campsite - that's helping too, isn't it?

 

I may be reading it wrongly, but my impression of dad and son being kicked out of the eating area isn't because they cooked their own food, but because they had the audacity to cook steaks, while everyone else was eating something much less "fancy". I just don't get the impression that the problem was that they cooked for themselves. Indeed, it appears that they have cooked for themselves a number of times, and it was only the time they cooked steaks that caused a reaction from the adult leaders. I'd melt down too if no one ever had a problem with it before then. the Troop created an acceptablity for them to cook for themselves before they cooked the steaks.

 

And now - now that another rank advancement is coming up - you want to use Scout Spirit to make your point? You're not ready to have that conversation yet. You need to get the house back in order before you have that conversation. If the leaders aren't ready to accept the responsibility they have for starting this mess, how can they expect the Scout to take any responsibility for "Scout Spirit"?

(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

[Twocubdad]

This isn't an advancement issue, so don't play the game of parsing requirements. That is immaterial.

 

This is an issue of what kind of troop you want to have. Don't argue the requirements. Don't argue what's in the handbook. Don't argue what someone at council said. This is about how the troop is going to operate and the vision the leaders have for the program offered to the Scouts. If this family doesn't share that vision, they are perfectly free to find another troop which shares their view of the world.

 

I dont' think you need to kick the kid out of the troop. My guess is when you lay down the law, they'll move on.

 

And by the way, I do like Moose's idea of meeting first with the parents. Although the kid may have a snit if required to camp with his patrol, at root this is an adult problem. If it gets ugly, the kid doesn't need to watch. Or maybe they decide to move on without a fuss. Or maybe they say, "Oh thank you! Anything you can do to help us cut the apron strings will be great!" But I wouldn't really hold my breath waiting for that one.

 

Edited part -- listen to what Calico's posted. He's on the right track.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[SeattlePioneer]

I wouldn't be as hard on the adult leaders as some who have posted.

 

 

Personally, I would tend to be slack with boys new to Scouting for a while. I would have sympathy for a boy who hadn't camped or hadn't camped much and wanted to sleep in a tent with his Dad.

 

And having Dad parse the advancement requirements to figure out how Junior could complete them with a minimum of effort is common enough ---- whole troops are not infrequently devoted to that.

 

So I think it would be easy enough to accomodate a boy like that for a while. But when the pattern doesn't change and gets worse, there's a time to decide enough is enough.

[Basementdweller]

It is one boy in the troop.

 

I am an ASM and a part time one at that, The Pack didn't meet that night and I happened to be helping go thru the books in prep for the BOR and noticed things I knew happened and didn't happen first hand.

 

The reason they were thrown out of the Patrol area was the kid was bragging and waving the steak under everyone noses and making the scene.

 

My point on the requirement thing......everyone here beats the don't add requirements drum.

 

 

IMHO everything that has been said is correct.....The boy needs to sleep, eat, travel and be with his patrol. Now to get the SM and CC to bring down the hammer.

[SMT224]

Scout Spirit is certainly a big part of the issue here, especially connected to hours earned at the service project. And while part of this may be communication of expectations to both the parents and Scout, I still see advancement as a critical issue here.

 

Dad is not part of the Patrol!! Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts!!!

 

If Dad is along and in the tent and with his kid every inch of the way, then it's Cub camping not Boy Scout camping. If Dad is there helping his son with the tent and the meal, it does not count and it should not be signed off! The Scouts in the Patrol have to do it to earn it!!! And unrolling a tent is simply not enough.

 

No, do not boot him from the Troop. Let him and his parents know that hence forth he is part of a Scout Troop, not a Cub Pack and he must act accordingly -- Dad is not a Scout, not in his Patrol, and not part of the Troop. If the Dad goes on a camping trip, he is in the adult area and stays away from the Scouts -- especially his son! Dad sleeps in his own tent and the son bunks with Scouts in his Patrol in a tent he helped pitch.

 

If they choose to stay with the Troop and abide by those rules, great! Everyone will benefit, especially the Scout! If they choose to leave, great! The Troop will be better off with out a family that cannot let their son be a Scout.

[moosetracker]

I agree with both comment by twocubdad and Seattle..

 

You may give a little slack to the newbie scout for one or two trips, but if things don't improve naturally, then you have risked being on a slippery slope.. (I think though the motel stay, would have been the last straw for many troops.. That is not what I call a mild need for a security blanket, until they feel secure..)

 

The advancement is something you think of putting a stop to, because it is obvious this is what they are after with the least amount of effort. So since that is their single minded goal, you want to put the breaks on their single minded goal..

 

But, TwocubDad is right, the reason you are putting on the breaks is because you don't want your troop to have that single minded.. Merit badge mentality.. You might get their attention by putting the breaks on their goal.. But, you will get their attention more, if the breaks are put on their goal, because you sit them down and tell them it is because this isn't the way your troop does things, and you do not condone or encourage that type of behavior. If they wish to get the badge without the work, and without becomeing a full team member of the troop and of his patrol, then he simply will not advance here..

 

Then when they start book thumping and demanding you let them work the loopholes.. Then you can use the Scout Spirit as a reason why all the loopholes they find, will never get them past the rank he is in until he truely learns what scout spirit is all about..

 

You kind of have to get their attention by damaging their goal.. But, you should not keep it totally in the advancement.. Let them know there are 8 methods of scouting and in order to get signed off on scout spirit, he has to become aquainted with the other 7 methods.. Then list what is expected of him as well as the other boys in the troop (whom I am assuming are living up to the expectations, most times)..

 

If they do not accept that, then there are other troops in the area, and they may be a better fit for one of them.

 

Pull them out of their narrow perspective, to get a full understanding of what your troop is all about, and why he is not living up to your troops perspective of what scouting is all about.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[boomerscout]

Have someone donate a decent piece of gear or gift certificate as a contest prize. At the next troop meeting or function have a put-up-the-tent contest. Choose this lad as one of the contestants, or give the word in advance to his PL and have the PL "choose" him. Have the other contestants also be T'feet. If he is not at that particular function, then delay the contest until he is.

If he can erect the tent by himself, then he passes that part.

[Twocubdad]

I'm all for reasonable accommodation, SP, but this is intolerably beyond the pale. We have had Scouts with serious developmental disabilities whose parents attended every campout, but have never had a parent this meddlesome.

 

BD, I hope nothing I've written has been read as critical of your unit leaders. I think most of us try to be accommodating and work with Scouts and parents, especially new Scouts, and sometimes give a little more than we should. It seems to me this dad has taken advantage of the lattitude he has been afforded. But now the unit leaders see where where the situation landed, they must act decisively for the benefit of the troop.

 

[Lisabob]

This isn't about advancement. It is about manners and troop culture.

 

Suppose that this boy never wants to advance past Tenderfoot (or 2nd class or whatever).

 

Are you telling me that you'd be ok with these outrageous behaviors in that case? Because I wouldn't. Calico & Twocub are right. Some adult leaders - probably the SM and CC - need to sit down with boy (SM) and parent (CC) and tell them what's what.

 

The parents are doing no favors to their boy by allowing this behavior. The boy will make no friends in the troop by acting this way. The troop will gain no benefit to allowing it to continue, since every boy in the troop might reasonably decide that their parents should also pay for motel rooms and cook them steaks.

 

What's happening here is a behavior issue. Rank advancement is secondary to that. Nip the behavior in the bud.

 

(Then, we can talk about rank advancement. It is NOT adding to the requirement to expect the boy to do his own rank advancements, and to do them to whatever the common standard of competence in your troop tends to be. This is not parent-scouts or family-scouts, it is BOY scouts. The SM should make it clear that boys whose fathers do things for them simply won't get the sign offs they seek. Don't fall for the argument that the book doesn't say dad can't cook for him. The book doesn't say I can't use a blow torch to light a fire while snorting coke and chucking throwing stars at the wildlife, but I bet you wouldn't let me do that at one of your campouts, either. Right?)

 

[boomerscout]

this boy maybe has never been separated from his overly-protective family. Trying to reason with him may not work because the conceptual model of "apartness" may not even exist in his mind.

Have you talked to his Eagle uncles? Any clues? Oh, and tell him motels have bedbugs.

[clemlaw]

>>>>this boy maybe has never been separated from his overly-protective family. Trying to reason with him may not work because the conceptual model of "apartness" may not even exist in his mind. Setting up a tent in the rain with no complaint?

[evmori]

Interesting. If I was on the BOR and aware of these issues, I would not vote to pass this Scout. The written explanation would include the reasons why this Scout was not passed and what he needs to do to pass and a time frame to complete this.

 

I would bet dad would toss a major hissy fit and when he didn't get his way, he would pull junior and head to another Troop. And that's OK.

[Basementdweller]

Nothing said here is taken personal......this media is just about as impersonal as it gets.

 

I am a little annoyed with Calico......So what is Help???? Where is the mythical he helped or didn't help line?????? The kid is a punk and his family are jerks....there I said it. If I had my way his ass would have been thrown out of the troop after the summer camp debacle. He would go out to eat every night at applebees or a steak house, eat breakfast at IHOP, go swim in the motel pool, soak in the hot tub and then brag to the other scouts about it. Had it been my decision, I would have sent him home.

 

There is no way you could know or understand the complete circumstance as to what is going on.

 

I was asking about IMHO falsifying his scout service records. His refusal to join the troop in the simplest of activities and attitude to the other boys.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[OldGreyEagle]

Not sure what is most distressing, the punk and the jerks or the Troop that allows them to flourish ,,,

 

You don't need the "Scout Spirit"requirement you (The Rhetorical You, not you presonally) need to gather yourselves up and say no and then let the fmily make their choice