When to "call it quits" on Trail to Eagle

[Hawkrod]

I guess it is semantics, my use of the word leadership was wrong because I define Charactor Development and Citizen Training as leadership skills. I was not refering to Leadership Development. I will try and avoid using that word as I am defining it differently. How about I restate the goal as creating better adults who have strength of character and lead by example? The bottom line is outdoor skills are not the goal, just a tool that only exist to achieve the goal. The lower ranks are there to teach the basic skills and the upper ranks are to teach the goals using the basic skills learned in the lower ranks.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Hawkrod and Old Grey Eagle,

 

 

Interesting comments.

 

Where DOES leadership training come in in Boy Scouts?

 

 

I'd have to say it resides most clearly in the method of patrol leadership, offhand.

 

I guess I'd have to disagree with the idea that leadership training shouldn't be a part of Boy Scouts. Perhaps that should have a more prominent and explicit place in the purposes of Boy Scouts.

 

 

Maybe it is too easy to get Eagle once parents have analyzed the program and come up with the most efficient methods for hurrying a boy to jump through the various hoops.

 

As I've mentioned, when I was Scoutmaster I didn't participate in that process very much, and the troop as such didn't participate in that process. Some parents did, but they did that on their own initiative and the troop wasn't dogging the steps of Scouts to encourage them to advance beyond First Class.

 

If other troops want to do things differently ---- fine. Personally, I'm comfortable with that kind of diversity among troops in Boy Scouts.

[qwazse]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess we're pretty much agreed on the "inform, but don't babysit" 17y.o.'s.

 

Is it about leadership? Or about outdoors?

 

Well, my oldest just came from a spring break backpacking trip with his college fellowship. He got the fire started (without fuel or starters) after a wet first day. He helped his team ford streams safely on the last day. He helped in the decision to call the trip early because conditions were not getting any better and the newbies were taking a beating.

 

Was he showing leadership, or just outdoors skills?

 

Don't know, but I think he pulled off that caring adult thing quite nicely.

 

[Gunny2862]

For those who are commenting on too much emphasis on getting Eagle and may or may not be noticing the conjunction of college scholarship application time: Parents who haven't prioritized Scouting in their youths' life come up against the fiscal realities of how much college is actually going to cost them if they are funding it - and come to see that anywhere between $500 and $5,000 is lying on the table for their Scout but it's just out of reach w/o that silly Scoutmaster signing over the award.

In our entitlement world, it's just plan mean of Scouting to deprive little Johnny of his rights by not giving him what he's earned by being in Scouting(never mind his 2 year hiatus and complete lack of involvement when he was there.

Of course, the fact that parents are waiting until the kids 18th birthday to start thinking about how to pay for college, well, they are already in deep unless they are able to just write the check.

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

Our view of the program is that outdoors, leadership and advancement are all just methods toward the goal of preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices. I taught both the scouts and the adults (at all levels of training from Council to unit JLT) that in my opinion, adults are responsible for the Aims of Scouting, and the Scouts are responsible for the Eight Methods.

 

While I was Scoutmaster, I honestly didnt really care how the scouts used the methods provided they did use the methods to run the program for the intent of developing citizenship, character and fitness. In fact, I learned from another wise SM somewhere to ask the PLC plan the activities with an element of all three those traits. For example every campout had a service project to satisfy the citizenship Aim.

 

But, as far as leadership or advancement, that was the scouts personal responsibility. We adults acted as passive guides and didnt take on a proactive approach to advancement except to insure that the program didnt have any barriers to hold a scout back. We did rely on leadership as a major part of character development because the leadership experience is the best way for a scout to see his limits of serving others. But, it was still up to the scout for initiating his leadership experience.

 

Our approach to the Aims and Methods is probably the reason why 80 % of the scouts who earn Eagle are 16 or older. But we do have a pretty high average of eagles, so I think the approach is balanced.

 

So I think the answer to the original question for us would be that we would encourage (even cheer) the scout to press hard for his goals and dreams, but we arent going to get upset if he gives up along the way. His parents might, but not the troop adult leadership.

 

Barry

 

[sherminator505]

"My bias is to make First Class the major achievement in Scouting. Star, Life and Eagle are fine, but are mainly polishing what a Scout should already have learned."

 

I agree, to a point. First Class Scout was once considered the be-all, end-all of the standard Scouting program. Thus the big, metal badge. It was a big deal indeed!

 

At that time, the merit badge program, along with Star, Life, and Eagle, were considered an advanced Scouting program, on par with things like the Order of the Arrow, Senior Scouting and the like.

 

The difference now is that Eagle is marketed as the be-all, end-all. This has lessened the perceived importance of First Class and shifted the focus of many troop programs from Scoutcraft and adventure to merit badges and generating Eagle Scouts. IMO, this shift in focus has been what has moved Scouting from the Patrol Method to what I would call the "individual advancement method" to the detriment of Scouting as a whole.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[qwazse]

Gunny,

 

Sarcasm noted.

Sometimes it sinks in when I try to remind adults that for a brand to be worth anything it needs to be defended. So it's our responsibility to make sure Johnny-come-lately with the bad attitude does not tarnish the brand by getting it undeservedly.

 

Edad,

I remind youth that it's not about the medal, it's about the character that causes others to award you that medal. If you don't earn the award, simply maintain good character and eventually you'll get whatever benefits the bird on your chest would have got you.

 

Sherm,

I agree, First Class should be the BSA "seal of approval". A boy should be proud to put that on their resume. But even if it were so, I bet we'd still see these down-to-the-wire scramblings for FC, because sooner or later someone would make it about the military pay grade or scholarship or whatever.

[SR540Beaver]

Eagle Scout and college applications. As I've recently noted in numerous threads, my Eagle just aged out a couple of weeks ago. He is a senior in high school and will be attending college next year. On his college applications and scholarship applications, he has listed Eagle as one of his accomplishments. Now, if it has somehow made a difference, I don't know how to determine that. I have a feeling that his being an honor student with a 4.15 GPA and a 29 on the ACT had much more to do with being accepted into the Honors College at the university he finally decided on and the scholarship they offered him. (He gets it from his mom, trust me!) Did the Eagle tip him over the line over another applicant? Possibly, but I have no way of knowing. I just don't know that it carries the weight that some claim. Still, it never looks bad on your applications.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Twocubdad]

If you're in Scouts because you think Eagle will look good on a college application, quit. Stay home and spend the time studying. Good grades look even better.

[Eagledad]

>>If you're in Scouts because you think Eagle will look good on a college application, quit. Stay home and spend the time studying. Good grades look even better.

[John-in-KC]

Several comments:

 

Gotta agree with Barry (eagledad and sherminator). They say it better than I.

 

I've had a couple quiet talks with Scouts. They were, in turn, 17 and 17 1/2. I simply said three things:

- In the eyes of the law, and the eyes of Boy Scouting, you're an adult on your 18th birthday.

- I noted Personal Fitness takes a bare minimum of 85 days, Personal Management 92 days, and Family Life 91 days (I assume in each case the Scout met with the Counselor to close out the badge). If they didn't start them on time, there were other activities and adventures to pursue, but the Eagle trail exits to the trailhead.

- The Troop would support them, but they had to want to invest the effort.

 

In many other activities as adults, we give fair notice of the deadline. That's why.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Sherminator,

 

 

>

 

 

That's an interesting analysis.

 

But I suggest that only really happens if the Troop and Scoutmaster permit it to happen.

 

Nearly 30 years ago when I was Scoutmaster, the main focus was on First Class, the Patrol Method and camping.

 

Circa 2004-2006 I was AS with a troop that operated pretty much the same way.

 

There was a PARENT who carried his boy into Eagle, but that wasn't really the doing of the troop.

 

I don't doubt that there are troops and Scoutmasters who have analyzed the methods of getting Eagle with a minimum of wasted effort and motion.

 

But troops and Scoutmaster don't need to do that. You can run your program along more fundamental lines if you and your committee wish to do so.

 

This leaves us with a diversity of Scouting programs. The eagle mills don't impose their methods on the patrol method troops and vice versa.

 

I'm reasonably satisfied with that. Could be worse...

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

The eagle mills don't impose their methods on the patrol method troops and vice versa.

 

No, no one is showing up at Roundtable demanding that my troop sbag patrol activities to attend the local merit badge university. The pressure on the program is much more subtle than that.

 

Our council does include announcements regarding the MBU in the newsletter which goes to all families. Every year I have a couple ticked-off parents when they learn our troop doesn't participate.

 

Ditto for "Eagle Week" at summer camp where older Scouts are encourage to attend provisionally with the promise of knocking out nearly half the Eagle-required MBs in a week.

 

Or the annual argument I get that "he really has his heart set on earning all three citizenship badges at camp this summer."

 

Or the pressure from the MB mill troops to which our council camp has slowly succumbed. The camp now offers MB classes until 4:00 every afternoon. And that does detract from the patrol method as program areas and staff like the water front, climbing wall and shooting ranges which were formerly open for patrol activities in the afternoon are now dedicated to merit badges. "Open activity" period is now just one hour.

 

Or even the constant whinning of parents when they discover the troop down the road spends every troop meeting in adult-organized and led merit badge classes.

 

Welcome to my world.

 

 

[clemlaw]

>>>>>and come to see that anywhere between $500 and $5,000 is lying on the table for their Scout but it's just out of reach w/o that silly Scoutmaster signing over the award.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Interesting observations there, Two Cub.

 

 

My DE is the Camp Director for one of our two Council Boy Scout Camps. I'll have to ask him if he gets units pushing him for things like that.

 

Of course Scout Camps are probably the leaders and pioneers of pencil whipping a merit badge!

 

But Scout camps can be flexible. If we call patrol centered troops the opposite of the Eagle mills, what would patrol centered troops like to see at summer camp to promote and support patrol centered programs?

 

You've provided an interesting list of things we'll say are favored by Eagle mill troops, what kinds of things should patrol centered troop be looking for and asking for?

 

Districts needn't organize or promote Merit Badge Universities if they don't want to. My district has done one in October for several years. I think I heard suggestions for another this spring when I wasn't paying attention at our district meeting this month. Perhaps I should have been paying attention. There are lots of things districts could do if they chose, from reducing the number of merit badges offered to insiting on higher standards for the Merit Badge to be approved. My district might decide to stick with one MBU and not do two, pouring limited resources into our strengthening our Camporee instead, for example.

 

 

And while you lament the competition of the Eagle Mill troops --- imagine how they feel about the patrol centered troops:

 

" Gad, that troop goes camping EVERY MONTH and the Scouts don't have to sit through Merit Badge Classes after school! How can we compete?"!(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)