When to "call it quits" on Trail to Eagle

[qwazse]

We had an Eagle candidate recently who butted up against his 18th birthday and missed his bird because of a "90 days recording" requirement on one of the merit badges. At his Life scoumaster conference (just barely 6 months earlier) we warned him to start those early.

 

He worked on his project and completed it on day 363 of his 17th year, then ran around chasing counselors on day 364. I guess he was under the impression that he could "cook the books" on the MB. He kept telling us he had things under control, when deep down we suspected he was fooling himself.

 

Anyway, when do you Scoutmasters tell the kid it's over and any badges earned or projects done are "just for fun"?

- Obviously, if a boy earns Life at age 17, 6 months, and 1 day, we tell the boy it's time to have fun and not sweat the medal stuff.

 

- But, at age 17, 9 months, and 1 day, do you call it if the boy can't produce a chart for a yet-to-be-earned Family Life or Personal Management or Personal Fitness with at least day 1 filled out?

-- Or, do you let the boy a blue card keep going to the MBC so he at least learns something in the process. Then, count on the MBC to give him a little tough love when it's the day before his 18th birthday and only 89 days or fewer of his chart are completed?

 

Committee chairs chime in too, because yours is the last signature on those applications!

 

MBC's I don't want to hear from you if you're inclined to give a little slack, but I do want to hear from you if a boy comes to you with no chance of completing a badge but willing to work on a partial.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[moosetracker]

If there is nothing to keep him from finishing due to a time requirement (3 month chart or 6 mth POR as stated).. I would never tell a boy it is impossible. But I will tell him he has a mountain to climb, and he has to make the call if he wants to try or not..

 

Although from the right person telling the scout it is impossible, may be what he needs to prove you wrong.. I know I would not be that sort of lopsided inspiration though..

One boy made that mountain when his grandfather who was a career scout, and he admired told him he couldn't make because he had too much left to do.

 

Then again, just this morning I get a call from my son.. He was proud to tell me he finished his Woodbadge tickets & 360's in the nick of time and got the Email confirmation he could be beaded at the 1yr 6th month cutoff date next weekend.. I may have been this type of inspiration, though I didn't think so. about six months ago I asked him if he planned on completing Woodbadge as he seemed to have stalled out.. I think it was his fiance who said "He has more important priorities" with him standing there and letting her speak for him and didn't indicate yes or no..

 

So then I said a few times when people asked about it, that he did not plan to finish..

 

So for some reason he was over joyed to tell me he had finished.. And how wrong I was to have given up on him.. He sure proved me wrong..

 

Huh, I just gave up on him because he gave up on himself.. I don't know if I was expected to push him or nag him or what.. But, nope.. You don't want to, you don't got to..

 

As an MBC counsilor would I work with a boy who couldn't finish but wanted to work on a partial.. Sure.. Most likely unless he comes in and tells me he only has 2 months before he's 18, I won't even know.. I will just jump in.. If he does tell me this then he will probably continue with I know I can't finish, but I want to do it for my own benifit (or something..) So how can anyone turn down a boy who wants to learn for the sake of learning?? I know I wouldn't..

 

Now If he came to me and said I only have 2 months, can you shave off a month of the charting, I would have to tell him "No"..

[evry]

I'm a MB Counselor for Personal Management. We have a Scout in the same situation as the one you describe. Last November, he approached me and said that he still needs his Personal Management MB. I told him that he should especially look at the 13 week requirement and get that started ASAP. For the last 4 months, he has been telling me that he will send all the items he prepared, but I haven't seen anything yet. I plan to meet up with him this Saturday, and he expects me to sign off, but I will need to see that ALL requirements were completed. I assume that he will provide me with a Budget and Actual Income/Expenses tracking for at least 13 weeks. If he does, I will not challenge him on whether it was prepared the night before (A Scout is trustworthy). If he shows me something that halfway meets the requirement (eg. an income and expense ledger without a budget) I will have a hard time accepting it. I will have to discuss with him and only when I am satisfied that he really understands what budgeting and forecasting means I will sign off. I must be satisfied in my mind that he has learned the material. Perhaps that is giving him some slack since he is aging out. On the other hand, if a younger Scout came to me and provided the same, I would ask him to go back and forecast a budget since he would have the time to complete it properly.

[sherminator505]

AFAIK, those "90 day" requirements exist for at least two merit badges on the required list for Eagle. You can warn the boy about these requirements, but it's really up to him. One of the things that can be done, if you catch it early enough, is to have the Scout begin to construct the first 1-2 weeks or so of the record from memory. If the Scout is motivated and wants to finish his Eagle, he will be able to do that. Then he's back on track, and the fire has been successfully lit.

[Lisabob]

I counsel some of the citizenship MBs and one of them requires a certain number of volunteer hours, plus attendance at some civic meetings. These are not as arduous as the 90 day/13 week requirements in the family, personal fitness, and personal management badges, but they do take a little bit of time and planning.

 

I had one scout who contacted me to work on the citizenship in community badge about 4 months before his 18th birthday. No problem, I said, let's meet. He never set up a meeting with me until about 2 weeks before his birthday. No problem still. We met. He hadn't attended any of the civic meetings and he hadn't done the volunteer hours required. Now time is short, but still, ok, it can be squeezed in. We found some appropriate meetings and some places he could do his volunteer hours. I warned him that he needed to get these done and contact me ASAP because I would be out of town just before his birthday.

 

A couple of days before his birthday we met again. He still hadn't completed some of the meeting and service hour requirements. Unfortunately I was going to be out of town over the weekend and really, truly, away from most forms of long distance communication. He would turn 18 before I was back in town. He had the temerity to be annoyed! Not wanting to see him give up when he was that close, I offered to help him contact a friend, another MB counselor, who was going to be in town and so would able to sign off on the last requirements before the boy turned 18.

 

To the best of my knowledge, the boy did not follow through and so didn't earn Eagle.

 

I didn't mind working with him and I hope he learned a thing or two from completing most of the citizenship in community requirements. BUT, his last-minute scrambling did impose some inconveniences on me, and on the back-up MB counselor, who was cooling his heels all weekend waiting for that boy to call him and get the last sign-offs taken care of.

 

So I guess, if a boy is beyond the timeline and wants to do a partial, that's fine. I'd be happy to take on a boy who goes into the badge knowing he can't finish it but still wants to learn most of the material. I'm also fine with working with a boy for whom time is tight, but there's still a chance (however small) of completing the requirements. But don't expect me to be at a boy's beck and call, hovering by my phone or computer waiting for him to get done moments before the clock strikes twelve and he turns into a pumpkin. That's just not respectful of other people's lives.

[SeattlePioneer]

I had a Scout who was right up magainst his 18th birthday without having planned his Eagle project.

 

He had been SPL for his entire tenure as a Life Scout.

 

He made an application to get an extension on the customery 18th birthday deadline, and I wrote him a letter truthfully suggesting that he had made a decision to spend his time being an excellent SPL rather than work on his Eagle.

 

That got him a three month extension which allowed him to complete his award.

 

I understand that extensions are pretty rare, though.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

[Twocubdad]

I had that conversation once which resulted in a bloody appeal process I've written about in the past.

 

The Scout earned Life then took a 2.5 year break from the troop. Started coming back a couple months after his 17th birthday. He was lacking a position of responsibility, a fact which I discussed several time over a number of months. Finally, about 5.5 months from his 18th BD(I was willing to spot him the two weeks), I flat-out told him he had to get with the SPL THAT NIGHT and start a POR or he would not be an Eagle Scout. He supposedly became a Troop Guide, sat shooshing the new scout patrol the rest of that meeting and the following week. He quit coming after that. The Scout's position was that he had been appointed Troop Guide prior to his two-year hiatus, and had served in the position for over two years (even though he never attend a meeting in that time.)

 

About two months later I got a call from his MOTHER saying he was completing college applicatons and wanted to know what the timeline was "on this Eagle thing." Funny how college apps tend to bring clarity to these situations. I met her and the Scout the following night broke the "news" to them. It was ugly. The mom cried and said she couldn't believe a I could "give up on a child" and was consequently unfit to be a Scout leaders. Later that night, during the troop meeting, the dad showed up to let me know what a son-of-a-b**** I was. To my knowledge that was the only time he had ever been to a troop meeting and only the second time I had ever laid eyes on the man.

 

Anyway, lessons learned:

 

-- Have these conversations soon and often. The first conversation I had with the Scout about a POR was 9 or 10 months out. He had plenty of time to fix things. At the time we had a lot of older guys facing their 18th BD and our advancement chairman was doing a very good job of charting how much time each of those guys had left.

 

-- Document, document, document. The only thing that saved my butt in the above situation was that I had copies of email follow-ups to several of the conversations I had with the Scout regarding the POR. And I had my advancement chairman sit in on the final, now-or-never conversation.

 

-- Involve the parents. I absolutely agree that we shouldn't have to pin notes to the sleeves of 17-year-old Eagle candidates, but I would have sure saved myself a lot of aggravation if the parents had been involved.

 

-- This really wasn't part of my situation, but to quarzse's point, I would not let a Scout start something where it is a technical impossibility to complete. I wouldn't let him start an Eagle-required POR inside six months (my willingness to spot the above Scout two weeks), and I would not issue him a blue card for any of the 90-day MB inside three months. Why? You're just creating a situation where someone can cook the books and take control of the situation out of your hands. The kid then shops for an easy counselor who pencil-whips the blue card and he has that merit badge whether you like it or not.

 

Things without hard time frames, like Eagle projects, you kinda have to let the Scout give it a try if he wants to. But you have to be very firm that he will be held to the same standards as anyone else and will not be allowed to cut corners just because he's running out of time. Again, make sure you communicate that to the parents, too.

 

By the way, the troop was upheld on appeal in the above situation. The appeals committee believed that because the Scout had been told multiple times he needed a POR and was given multiple opportunities to do so, that the troop had handled the situation properly.

 

 

Edited part -- a question for Evry:

 

You don't review the budget before they start the 90-day tracking? I know it's not specified in the requirements, but isn't the point of a budget to forcast income and expenses. Our troop Personal Management MBC asks the boys to at least touch base with him monthly during the tracking period. Yeah, someone will argue that's not in the requirements, but the Scouts get much more out of the process with the interim reviews. And in some respects, it's a little easier on the Scouts as they are more likely to follow through with the tracking with a couple touch-points along the way.

 

Personal Fitness clearly requires testing before beginning the 12-week fitness program. Seems like a good idea.

 

Frankly, I just don't like the idea of a Scout meeting only once with an MBC, just to turn in all the paperwork. How is that Scout learning from the counselor's expertise and guidance?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Personally, when e-mailing a Scout I always made a parent an addressee as well. That kept the parent in the loop of what was going on. The parent was informed but wasn't expected to take responsibility for what the Scout might need to do.

[SR540Beaver]

Question, should we be tracking what they have left to do for Eagle and keeping them informed as well as their parents? Especially kids over 16? I have no problem with tracking advancment in TroopMaster or some other method or having a Life to Eagle coordinator. But at some point in the process, a real Eagle candidate needs to own the process. Holding an 11 year old Tenderfoots hand is one thing, holding a 17.75 year old Life Scouts hand is a whole different matter.

 

Other than my son completing his final Eagle board on 12/14/10 with his 18th birthday being 02/26/11, I'm kind of removed from our troop's eagle process. We have other folks who do that. I never wooried too much as my son was at every meeting and as many campouts as his job would allow up until he turned 18 and now beyond. He made Life at 14 and knew what he needed to do for Eagle. I think he was having too much fun in his troop and OA POR's, staffing camp and doing high adventure to be bothered.....and he wanted to make the old man sweat. It is cases like his where the SM or someone else starts dropping hints and making suggestions.

 

The 17 year olds who are still registered but haven't darkened the door but maybe once a quarter since turning 14, we don't go out of our way to make sure they Eagle. They've made their decisions and they need to want to. If they pop back in with the desire, our SM and L2E coordinator are willing to work with them, but they have to put forth the effort. They will even grease the skids a little if there isn't time for a 6 month POR. The SM may work with the SPL to give him an assignment of serving as an instructor for X sessions and an expecation that he will attend all meetings and campouts between now and turning 18. Some boys accpet the conditions and knuckle under, some don't.

 

Like I said further up the post, at some point the boy has to be willing to own part of the process. If we see that, we are much more willing to assist as best we can. To my knowledge, our SM has rarely ever called it quits. I could see him doing that if a kid comes in two months away from his 18th birthday and has 10 MB's including the 90 day tracking MB's, his project to plan, get approved and do and a 6 month POR. At that point you have to be honest with them and say it is impossible to do.

 

Don't forget the Camping merit badge with it's nights of camping. I talked about it on another thread and whether you start counting nights when a boy gets approved to do the MB or if you can count nights camped before that. Our SM and our Camping MBC in our troop count them after you begin. This is known in our troop and is a surprise to no one. You are not forced to use our MBC. We have a 16 year old on again, off again scout who keeps showing up for meetings about once a month. He is trying to convince the MBC's for his unfinished MB's to give him a pass so he can get Eagle. He won't take a POR, he won't go on campouts, he won't sit with his patrol at meeetings when he does come because he is busy lobbying MBC's. No one is cutting him any slack and while they might be willing to fudge and count previous nights camping, his unwillingness to do the right thing is working against him. He still has at least a year and a half before he ages out.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Twocubdad]

I won't disagree with you, SR540. But I think there is a balance to be found. Our old advancement chairman had a spreadsheet with a series of "Last Date to Start ABC" and "Last Day to Complete XYZ." It was on the bulletin board in the scout house and available if anyone was interested, but it wasn't like he chased kids around with it.

 

I do believe it is important that this not become a game of gotcha, either. A Scout is both Friendly and Helpful. In the normal course of mentoring a young man, I believe it is appropriate to mention pending deadlines now and again. In my ordeal outlined above, my first conversation with the Scout about his POR took place during a conference to review his Eagle project. After going through the workbook, I said, okay, now let's talk about your leadership positions... I believe that was wholly appropriate. On the other hand, I don't think I would have been fulfilling my responsibility to the Scout if I had waited until inside six months and said, oh by the way time ran out last month.

 

A little bit of it is defensive Scouting, too. Had I not given the Scout clear, documented directions, the troop probably would not have been sustained on appeal. In your situation, if you wait until the last minute to remind the Scout he has to complete all 20 nights after the issue date on the blue card, you're asking for a huge headache. You may get one anyway, but I think you are in a more defensible position -- not to mention on the higher road -- if you've communicated your expectations with the lad along the way.

 

Again, balance. That doesn't mean you have to powder his butt for him, but I wouldn't remain silent knowing the fellow is going to walk off a cliff, either.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

Ummm... I wouldn't compare not getting Eagle to walking off a cliff.

 

 

Generally speak, after first class I was glad to encourage boys to continue advancement, but I didn't goose 'em or nag 'em.

 

I did give help to Scouts (and parents) who needed to navigate the thicket to get Eagle projects approved and completing the various letters and other requirements of getting Eagle approved.

 

Frankly, the idea that you need to chart and remind Scouts about Eagle requirements seems distinctly odd to me. That does strike me as butt powdering!

 

Our usual boy led troop standard seems to be breaking down on this thread!

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

TwoCub,

 

In general I don't disagree with you. To me personally, there is a difference between the kid who is active in scouting and letting time slip by and the kid who recharters every year, but never shows up. The first kid I'll causually ask in the hallway at a meeting if he has come up with a project yet or ask how many MB's does he have left and ask when he turns 18. Little reminders that he needs to manage his time. The kid who is never there, I can't do that....and I'm not calling him at home to remind him if he can't be bothered to participate.

 

Too many kids grow up these days with a sense of entitlement and I really don't think anyone is entitled to Eagle beyond the boys who commit themselves to puuting all their scouting skills, knowledge and leadership abilities to work earning it. While I'll help any boy at any stage, for those kids, I'll bend over backwards.

[Twocubdad]

And far from not disagreeing, SR, I will absolutely go along with that. In fact, one of the minor comments from an appeals committee member was that had the Scout chosen to attend troop meetings anytime in the 30 month period, he would have had more than ample opportunity to know where he stood and to take on additional PORs. (Cue angelic voices and heavenly rays of light.)

 

SP -- Don't get too wound up with the spreadsheet thing. It was something two advancement chairmen ago did one time and has never been maintained or updated. I only mentioned it to show that the kid in the story had been given every possible opportunity. At the time I thought it to be overkill myself. I certainly don't recommend it to anyone.

 

And I'm not equating not getting Eagle with a fatal accident. Rather that comment was in the context of not passively allowing a Scout to fail when, as SR540 notes, a casual, friendly bit of encouragement could set him up for success rather than failure.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Hawkrod]

SeattlePioneer, I don't know if I will ever get your point! LOL. You write "Ugh! More evidence for my theory that too much emphasis is placed on Eagle.

 

My bias is to make First Class the major achievement in Scouting. Star, Life and Eagle are fine, but are mainly polishing what a Scout should already have learned.

 

(Leadership skills being the exception to that general rule)" and yet the goal of Boy Scouts is leadership skills. There is no other point to Star, Life and Eagle, they are designed around leadership skills. Outdoor skills is not the goal of Boy Scouts, it never was and should never be. The entire program is designed to make better leaders and becoming and Eagle is specifically a measurement of what kind of leader you have become. My issue is with too many Eagle mills and "half hearted" Eagle projects that get approved that should never have been submitted. It is far too easy to get Eagle in some areas. Our District has been having issues with that and it specifically came up in our last meeting. The things we are reading about these boys in this thread are exactly why they do not deserve to be Eagles no matter how "good" a kid they are. An Eagle is a leader and should be recognized as such and the rank should be hard to attain. It is the goal of the program and only those who learn the skills and make the effort deserve it. Just my opinion and your mileage may vary!

[OldGreyEagle]

The overall "goal" of scouting is "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

The Aims of Scouting are:

Charactor Development

Citizen Training

Personal Fitness

 

The methods are:

The Ideals

The Patrol Method

The Outdoors

Advancement

Association with Adults

Personal Growth

Leadership Development

The Uniform

 

I very much disagree that the goal of Boy Scouts is Leadership Sklls. Its not mentioned in the Mission, its not mentioned in the Aims and is only one of seven methods, none more important than another

 

If Scouting ain't Outing, I am not sure I want to be a part of that bowdlerized program.