Biding their time to Eagle

[Pack212Scouter]

I have seen several boys in a few Troops simply "biding their time" for the six months until they meet that "active" requirement. Basically, showing up at the occasional meeting and not doing much. So here is my question of this...is it permissible, and even appropriate to say thay they are not earning their Eagle when their BOR comes up? I am basing the question on this.

 

Requirement #2 states "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references."

 

So...here is my basis...How can they be living by the Scout Oath, specifically "help other people at all times." If they are refusing to teach younger Scouts in the Troop and help those Scouts advance?

[ScoutNut]

The requirement states "daily life", not "during Scout meetings".

 

How can a Scout just be "biding his time" waiting for the 6 month time requirement for Eagle to be up? How are they fulfilling their POR? How are they planning, and running, their Eagle Project? How can they do all of that while still "not doing much"?

 

 

[Eagle92]

Pack,

 

As pointed out, the key words are daily life. While they may not be active with their troop, they may still be living up to the Oath and Law in their lives, hence the referencees.

[evmori]

Scout meetings are part of daily life.

 

Have they already fulfilled their POR for Eagle?

[OldGreyEagle]

Remember, you don't have to be talking about Advancement to do a Board of Review, if you have an scout acting unscoutlike, there is no problem in having a Board of Review and telling the scout that unless X, Y and Z occur, they will not be advancing. For amy rank. Of course, the X, Y and Z are part of the regular BSA requirments.

 

If I had a scout refuse to teach something, there would be a pretty immediate discussion as to why they refused

[FScouter]

Why pray tell, would one wait around for the Eagle board of review to tell the boy he didn't do enough? If he's not doing enough, tell him NOW, and work out a plan with him to turn it around NOW.

[Beavah]

Yah, of course it's appropriate to sit with the lads and tell 'em that if they want an award they actually have to work hard to be worthy of the award. Personally, I wouldn't e en make it about da award, eh? If they want to be respected by others, they have to work hard. Being given awards is only one part of being respected by others.

 

I continue to be surprised by da adults who don't have the pluck to insist on high standards, and make excuses with laughably narrow readings of the requirements. "it only says everyday life, so I can skate by in scouting" is an argument that even da most disputatious teenager would be embarrassed by, eh? I can't figure how any adult in a program that aims to build personal honor and character can make it with a straight face.

 

The Rules & Regulations state clearly that all interpretation of the advancement program materials must harmonize with da aims. So if yeh want to live up to da application yeh signed to be an adult scouter, and yeh want to provide a true scouting program, yeh can't buy into that sort of silly reading of da requirements.

 

Like OGE says, have a SM conference or a BOR and explain your disappointment with the lad, and inspire him to do better. But don't give him an award for just markin' time.

 

Beavah

[resqman]

I have seen cases where the scout earned Life by 14. Holds a POR and then only attends couple times a year. Basically to get a MB signed off. Couple years go by and he is 17. Parents pressure him to finish before he ages out. Puts together a project and attends a few troop meetings asking for labor. A busy Saturday and the project is completed. He does the paperwork and is ready for EBOR.

 

He got his POR years ago and has maintained his membership. He meets the rule of Active because he was registered but did not Participate. Case of the Fumes, perfume and gasoline. Girls and cars seem a lot more exciting than sleeping on the ground and hiking in the rain.

[FScouter]

" 'it only says everyday life, so I can skate by in scouting" is an argument that even da most disputatious teenager would be embarrassed by, eh? I can't figure how any adult in a program that aims to build personal honor and character can make it with a straight face. "

 

Well, nobody said that so youre only arguing with your own straw man. On the other hand it was pointed out that correctly that living the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life does not equate to teaching younger Scouts in the troop and that not doing so is not a basis for turning down a Scout for the Eagle rank.

 

So yes, helping others and living the Scout Oath and Law is a requirement, and helping other Scouts advance can help meet the requirement, but there are 101 ways to live the Scout Oath and Law.

[Stosh]

Hmmm, I'm thinking "help other people at all times..." might be drawn out in a SMC. I'm thinking the Oath isn't restricted to the check box in the book.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

I take "every day life" to mean 24/7 which includes time with the troop AND elsewhere.

 

Why in the world would you create ANY exception from living the Oath and Law?

[Pack212Scouter]

Exactly, the oath is "help other people at ALL TIMES," not "help other people, except when at Scouts." I'm all for giving the lad what he has earned, but if he is demonstrating unscoutlike behavior such as NOT helping others and refusing to volunteer to do these duties, should he just get a pass because he helped mom unpack her groceries?

[GKlose]

We've got a situation coming up, which I'm watching from the periphery -- an older Scout, 17, who has finished an Eagle project. Prior to this, he hasn't been around the troop much, and somehow skated by on some PoRs. Because he hadn't been around much, when he was looking for labor for his Eagle project (which was a very ambitious rehabbing of a skate park -- well over 200 hours of scraping, sanding, painting, installation of "kick plates", and that sort of thing), he didn't get many troop volunteers. I'd say less than 10 hours total, out of the 200. The bulk of the work was done by the candidate and his dad. It will be interesting to see how a EBoR handles that (our boards are now done at the district level).

 

I have my theories about this scout -- his dad claims the kid is burned out on scouting, and therefore is trying to do the minimal amount of work to finish Eagle. In the past, this has included minimal effort on PoRs. I know that's a whole other story -- a failure of past troop adult leadership, via the SM and the boards. We've taken steps to solve that problem.

 

But here's the most recent fallout -- now that the project is done, the only thing standing in the way of Eagle, for this candidate, is a real PoR, and the troop is working on real accountability in those roles. For everyone, not just this particular candidate. Since this candidate didn't win a spot via fall elections (who would vote for him, they barely know him...), the SM created a PoR for this Scout. A "trip coordinator" spot -- coordinate all outing plans, gathering information, names, etc. All of the scut work. One of the first major events for him to coordinate happened this last weekend -- a snowshoe excursion in Franconia, NH. The kid found a campsite online, but when they arrived Friday PM at the campsite, they found it was closed for the winter. Turns out the "trip coordinator" found a campsite name, but didn't actually call it for a reservation. I'm not sure what exactly transpired after that, or in the last couple of days, but they were able to find another campsite late that night, and the weekend went well otherwise.

 

Personally, I do see a troop culture at fault. For years, our troop has allowed this adult-led troop-method advancement-oriented culture to take root. We've been making positive changes, but the hardest thing to deal with has been these older scouts who have not been around with an effective PL or SPL, active patrols, or accountable leadership, etc. It hasn't been pretty making changes.

 

Guy

[BrentAllen]

resqman,

The problem with that Scout started at age 14 when he stopped showing up. If I had a Scout who I only saw occassionaly, I would hold a Scoutmaster conference to find out why he wasn't attending, and also discuss the issue with the parents. If he didn't have a legitimate excuse, and his attendance was as bad as you say, we'd drop him from the rolls at recharter.

 

I've posted this before, borrowed from Green Bar Bill:

 

"The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity."

 

Our Scouts hear that from day 1. We don't get 100% attendance, but I'm happy with our results, especially considering how many other events our Scouts are involved in. And yes, we record attendance at all meetings and activities. If I get a complaint from a parent about "Timmy didn't get his Tenderfoot when Bobby did" I pull out the attendance records and odds are that Timmy missed meetings and campouts that Bobby attended, where Bobby was able to work on and pass requirements.

 

As was mentioned earlier, set the bar high if you want a high quality program.