Eagle Project

[Abel Magwitch]

Not at all. From what SPL1Warwick has written, the project was competed. Which to me also indicates that the SM already approved the project.

 

Now of course when a Scout brings his project idea forward, it has to be approved prior to even starting the project. It is approved by the SM, the troop committee, someone from the group the project will benefit and the district or council.

 

It appears in this situation that the Scout went ahead with his project. So now the questions are - did the Scout have approval prior to starting his Eagle project? If not, then it wasn't an Eagle project. If it was approved and completed, then it's up to the Eagle board to decide if the project was carried out as planned and if the Scout demonstrated leadership.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Eagle732]

I didn't think so, but was wondering if your comment was a reply to my post.

 

The EBOR can decide what it wants but when it gets appealed eventually the scout will get his medal. I have seen it time and time again to the point that I believe the Eagle rank has been cheapened. And that's from a dad who's son just earned Eagle last month.

 

Sounds like a spin off:

What outrageous violations have you seen in earning the rank of Eagle that resulted in EBOR denials which ended up being overturned on appeal?

[nolesrule]

The labor part of my project could have been done by my dad and me in my garage in a couple of days, although I did use 5 or 6 people in total across 3 or 4 sessions.

 

Consideration of the leadership of the project should be looking at more than just the scope of any execution phase, although it shouldn't be ignored.

 

Personally, I think the bulk of the expression of leadership should lie in the planning and development stage. Too often I've seen projects handed to people with no real development by the scout involved beyond recruiting volunteers and assigning them what to work on during the day(s) of the execution phase. It should be his project, not someone else's where all he does as serve as foreman during the execution phase. Leadership of the execution phase should be considered as part of the whole.

 

If a project doesn't need a lot of man-hours for execution, and that's where the objection lies, why was the project approved in the first place? It should have been obvious during the pre-approval process, so long as there was no actual change in scope.

[Abel Magwitch]

Eagle732, I was reponding to your question. And from what you have written, you are doing things right. As a SM, the Scout needs your approval prior to starting his project. Kudos to you for maintaing a high standard before approving the Scout to begin his Eagle project.

 

I recently served as district advancement chair. And yes, I have been on some EBOR where the board did not find that the Scout had demonstrated leadership. And of course, the Scout appealed and received his Eagle from national. But in those cases, I was asked to be part of a board by another district advancement chair.

 

When a Scout came to me for his final approval prior to starting his project, there were times that I would not sign off until he revised some stuff. (I had my share of SM's who were trying to let a cheap project get by). Luckly for me, I never had a EBOR that failed the Scout. I cannot say that for my other district chairs.

 

Thus the reason for all the signatures prior to starting the project. If a cheap project was approved, it was approved by the SM, the troop committee, the recipient of the project and the district advancement committee. If all four entities approved a cheap project, the question of whether the Scout demonstrated leadership is left up the the Eagle Board of Review.

 

Abel

 

[SPL1Warwick]

Eagle732, i agree that the SM should be allowed to be able to have a say which now that i think back all four signatures must be obtained at the end saying that they planned and carryied out the project. And i think everyone has the wrong idea, he thought that he was going to have more scouts show up....thats why it was approved. but it didnt turn out like that. He had his mom (CC) his dad (SM) one scout and a personal friend. They baked bread, they measured mixed baked and packaged the bread. I personally think that this is not acceptable...soley on the thought that he only provided leadership to 2 people. Considering that the adults were just there for health and safety. But i wasnt there i dont doubt that the adults steped in and took over. I dont doubt it at all.... but i wasnt there. Thats another question..... Should adult leaders be able to participate in an eagle project?

[Eagle92]

In ref to adults and service projects: it depends upon their role.

 

If an adult is there to help do things, or offer his advice, stressing advice NOT telling them what to do, then yes. I saw one project where the Eagle, he passed and got it, used the advice of an engineer to do the blueprints of his project. Scout sketched the design, but the engineer took the sketch, and made the blue prints for it. It's called using your resources. Same Eagle also had everyone in the troop, about 8 scouts, a visiting scout, and 5 adults building the shelter, and it was done over 2 or 3 weekends.

[SPL1Warwick]

Now thats an Eagle Project! But yes i tottally agree, it depends on the project and it depends on their role.

[nolesrule]

"But i wasnt there i dont doubt that the adults steped in and took over. I dont doubt it at all.... but i wasnt there. Thats another question..... Should adult leaders be able to participate in an eagle project?"

 

 

So in other words, lacking any evidence, you are making unwarranted assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

 

Last I checked, the project requirements didn't put restrictions on who may or may not help with an Eagle Project.

 

His plan called for more participants. It didn't happen that way. Part of the post-project review is discussion of compensating for things that didn't go according to plan. But poor recruiting isn't a change in project scope.

 

I can only assume that the project itself was properly completed in regards to the final output, unless after 2 pages of vague information, someone decides to state otherwise.

 

The project was approved ahead of time, and we can only assume the project was completed without a change in scope to the satisfaction of the beneficiary. Therefore, as has been stated, this should be a determination for the Eagle Board of Review. If the Board has questions about the scout showing leadership in the project, and they always do, he will have to answer to them at that time.

[Gary_Miller]

From what has been described this was a ligament project. It meets all the requirements for and Eagle Project. The over all requirement is for the Eagle Candidate to show leadership. That leadership starts when the project is approved, by making assignments to others and ensuring that they are carried out, it is not just what the scout does on the day of the project. There is no rule that the project has to include other scouts at all.

 

Leadership in this case could have consisted of getting someone who is a baker to help in finding a recipe, collecting and making sure there was enough ingredients to do the job, and working with an organization who would deliver the end product. As long as the candidate was in charge of organizing and seeing that the project was completed he showed leadership. Its not the number of people involved as much as what was accomplished and how it was accomplished. Nor is it the number of hours physically but into the project.

[Abel Magwitch]

SPL1Warwick, are you the SPL of your troop? Are you an Eagle Scout?

 

You mention that the Scout new about an upcoming campout, but decided on doing the project during that time anyway. You brought up questions in your posts that I myself would ask if I were an Eagle board member. I would ask the Scout if he planned for his fellow Scouts to help him with his project. If yes, I would then ask why would he schedule his project when he knew the troop would be camping. I would ask why he would ask his fellow Scouts to not go camping to work his project. That sounds a bit selfish to me. I would think the potential Eagle Scout would have been needed at the camp as a junior leader. I would question the Scout if he felt that having a project during a scheduled camp showed leadership? I personally do not believe this was leadership. And because he had so few Scouts, was he able to carry out his project as planned? Did he recruit enough others to ensure the project was carried out satisfactorily?

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-927.pdf

 

 

Page 9 of the workbook is for the four signatures of approval before the project even begins. I would want to know if his Scoutmaster and Troop committee approved the Scout doing his project when the Troop would be camping. Planning and approval is all about being prepared.

 

The second to last page of the pdf document are for the final three signatures once the project has been completed. They are the Scout, the Scoutmaster and a representative from who benefited from the project.

 

My final question to you is did this Scout have the needed four signatures of approval before he carried out his project?

 

[Eagle732]

Abel, let me tell you what maintaining a high (reasonably high) standard got me. Instead of reworking his Eagle project the scout decided to do an end run and quit the troop without telling anyone. He joined a troop with a brand new SM and CC and got his weak project immediately approved. 3 weeks later he had his EBOR and was approved. Lots of leadership was shown, I'm sure! Congratulations!

 

Funny thing, yesterday I was talking with the head of the vet. group that Instant Eagle did his project with. He couldn't understand why the scout hadn't been by to pick up the collected items. I had to explain to him that once the organization signed off on the project the scout had no further obligation as the project was considered completed. He gave me a puzzled look and said that he was under the impression that the scout would continue to collect and deliver items for 6 months. Sorry, seems you were taken!

[SPL1Warwick]

Abel.... i am SPL, i am an eagle scout and yes he did get approval before he started, but i dont think it dawned on anyone who signed off. Idk maybe you guys are right its the EBOR to decide but at the same time they are asking for SM approval. We'll see what happens!