Eagle without having to build a fire? Really?

[perdidochas]

Shrubber,

 

There are parts of the country where making a fire is impractical.

[Stosh]

Learning to build a fire for survival, safety, or other emergencies is not impractical no matter where one lives. There are ways for the boys to learn the skill and they don't need to do it in the middle of a fireworks factory.

 

Snow Sports MB is not a major necessity for all Scouts, so the Puerto Rico scouts may wish to take a pass on this, but building fires, making shelters, and other important survival skills are not optional nor impractical.

 

An Eagle scout that has never learned to start an fire and can't demonstrate his ability to do so under adverse conditions is a Parlor Scout, not a Real Scout. The certificate, patch and medal do not make him an Eagle, what he knows and what he can do with it, does.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[evmori]

"I would say burn bans are used as an excuse more than a valid reason."

 

This is probably because you receive more rain in a month than some of us receive in a year.

 

Probably but what does that have to do with this?

[CalicoPenn]

Understanding fully that this response is pedantic - if I need a fire built, I'm not looking for an Eagle Scout. I'm going to look for a First Class Scout. I'll look for the Eagle Scout to organize and lead a team to gather materials and build the fire, but would expect that the Eagle Scout be confident enough to delegate building the fire to someone else.

[clemlaw]

Most non-scouts are able to start a fire. It's not exactly rocket science, so I wouldn't worry too much whether or not there's a specific requirement.

 

I have noticed that most of the non-scouts tend to use flammable liquid to get their fire going. But most of them seem to be aware of the fact that you can use crumpled-up newspaper in place of the flammable liquid. I bet if they thought about it, they would probably even be able to figure out that you can use small pieces of wood in place of the crumpled-up newspaper.

 

As far as I know, there's no specific requirement that an Eagle Scout know how to tie his shoes. But as far as I know, most of them figured it out somewhere along the way.

 

By the way, don't tell anyone, but I use crumpled-up newspaper. I hope I don't have to turn in my Eagle.

[perdidochas]

I should have posted this as part of my earlier post. Despite the fact that I do recognize that fire making isn't always easily practical in some parts of the country, in most it is. I do believe that firemaking is an important outdoor skill. I'm teaching my sons how to start fires without matches/lighters (using the BSA Hot Spark), because once they have mastered that, starting fires with matches or lighters is much easier.

[Stosh]

Delegating duties is not leadership. It's management and there is a lot of difference between the two.

 

If someone with an Eagle patch on his shirt delegates away a responsibility because he can't roll up his sleeves and get the job done, isn't much of an Eagle in my book.

 

Managers manage tasks, leaders lead people.

 

Eagle without having to build a fire? is really saying that BSA "leadership" relies on knowledge of a task without having to show proficiency. This ideological approach might be wonderful in theory, but the practicality of the situation is non-existent. It does however show that the new goal for Eagle is management, not leadership.

 

"I know CPR, but because I'm an Eagle Scout I'm going to have you do the actual compressions and breathing for this person. I'm here to direct, mentor, guide all you first class scouts."

 

When a true leader says "Follow me, boys" it means that he/she has rolled up their sleeves and already doing the activity.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

One of the things I was taught in my troop, in my original lodge, in JROTC, and in a couple of jobs I've had: You don't expect others to do things you would not do yourself.

[SeattlePioneer]

Heh, heh!

 

Around here a Tenderfoot Scout who wants to become Second Class has to show his proficiency by building a fire in the mountains on top of six feet of snow in subfreezing wind driven snow.

 

No stinking matches are allowed either! Make yourself a bow to get the tinder you find lit up! You have a shoelace to use with the bow, right?

[clemlaw]

(Hanging head in shame as I look at the crumpled-up newspaper in my hand.)

[Eagle92]

Seattle,

 

Can I use my flint and steel or hot spark instead? At least you can knock the snow off the wood. Down in SE LA where I grew up, you had to deal with soaking wet wood from rain, AND LIKE IT! nothing a little lint from the old belly button couldn't fix though.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Stosh]

 

I would expect a TF scout to be able to work on the basics and use matches. But by the time they are FC they should know and have a working knowledge of fire-starters, gel starters, making egg-carton fire starters, candle stubs, magnesium lighters, etc. etc.

 

By the time they are Star/Life they should be expert on preparing wet wood, finding different kinds of woods for different needs, and mastering the art of emergency fires. By the time he's Eagle he should be playing with bow/drill and flint/steel, just for fun! He is also a master of area preparation and fire safety as well. He has the resources to start a fire and snuff it all in the same place.

 

And most importantly of all he can teach new scouts all this neat stuff and keep them safe in the process.

 

Stosh

[sherminator505]

Ed,

 

Let's look at it this way. You look at fire restrictions as an occasional occurence. This is how we view forest closures.

[Proud Eagle]

I think I saw someone start a fire with a bow a few times, but I certainly have never tried it. Then again everyone I saw do it carried a special fire by friction kit for the purpose, never saw anyone improvise it.

 

Around here we start fires whenever possible, and we even use innovative work arounds to burn bans, everything from those patio fire pits with screen covers to carcoal grills. There are ways. We had a burn ban during our last lodge Vigil induction weekend, that was a bit of a trick to deal with.

 

I must ask, surely there is a fire place you could use to practice fire building in? Or a wood burner? The same general idea applies after all.

 

That said, I once had a devil of a time starting a fire in an old brick fire place. I burned up an entire old sears catalog, several hundred pages, and never could get the log to catch or the chimney to draw. Then the owner came in and managed it in just a few minutes. Sometimes it helps to know your equipment.

 

As to BSA and skills proficiency... I think that is a bad joke. Nothing about BSA's requirements calls for real proficiency. Your average Scout learns something just well enough to get signed off on it and then rapidly forgets all about it. I would hate to think what the failure rate would be if at Eagle BOR we retested the candidates on First Class skills (and the Scoutmasters wouldn't do much, if any, better). This is before even opening the issue of sign offs during classes at summer camps or merit badge universities or any other large group setting. I like that BSA now wants Scouts to teach skills, but the EDGE method as part of Tenderfoot is farcicle.

[Eagle92]

PE,

One reason why I am a big fan of having older scouts teach younger scouts, keeps the older scouts proficient.

 

My favorite item to use I found by accident: old time "pump drill." it's a flat, round piece of wood with a hole to put a dowel rod through. Attach a string to two sides of the rounder that then go atop the dowel and spin the rounder so the string wraps around the dowel. With a steady up and down motion, the dowel will produce fire via friction. Found that out while playing with a pump drill before the flint head was placed on the dowel and smoke was produced.