The Purpose of a Board of Review

[Beavah]

The purpose is to find out what they like and dislike about the program and to find ways to improve the program... It is a checks and balance, you need people to come in from time to time to run an audit on your buisness and figure out how to improve it. The BOR is sort of like an audit..

 

Moosetracker made the above quote in the parent thread, and I figured I spin it off just so the purposes of a board of review discussion don't distract too much from that thread.

 

It's interestin' to me how I hear what moose is sayin' from adults a lot more than I used to. This is sort of a newfangled notion, eh? It's not really listed as any of the BSA's purposes for a Board of Review. Those are:

 

1) To make sure the boy has learned.

2) To find out how he's doing in the troop. and

3) To encourage him to future achievement.

 

Nuthin' about evaluating the troop program. This notion all seems to come out of one sentence in one of da ACP&P versions.

 

Quite honestly, a Board of Review seems to me to be both an odd and a poor way to evaluate the troop program. To evaluate the troop program, we have the new Quality Unit bronze/silver/gold stuff, we've got rafts of material from da commissioner program, and most of all yeh have the committee's observed experience of meetings and outings. Committees out there, yeh are watching aren't yeh?

 

The BOR in scouting is a part of Advancement Method and is traditionally all about the boy, or at least I think it's supposed to be. It's not about da program. That's why the BSA's 3 purposes for a board are all about the boy. Has he learned & grown? Is he doing well or are there things he/we should be doing differently? How can we help him with further growth? Boy, boy, boy. It's all about the boy.

 

For an "outside audit" on unit program, yeh have unit commissioners. That's not what a BOR is for. Leastways, not for the last 100 years in Scouting, IMNSHO.

 

What do da rest of you think?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

The intent of this post is to show examples of why an adult could think that a purpose of the Board of Review is to evaluate the Troops program

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-625.pdf

 

on page one we read

 

"The board of review is how the troop committee (or the Eagle Scout board of review) tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop. If the board of review is for rank advancement, the board will satisfy itself that the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for that rank and will review with the Scout the requirements for the next rank. The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troops progress.

 

This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scouts attitude and his acceptance of Scoutings ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders"

 

I think the key phrases here are:

 

"The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troops progress"

 

"It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders"

 

these two phrases are not about the boy but the troop

 

then on page 5 we find the following

 

"Other aspects of the board of review should never take a back seat. This is the time to ask the Scout how he feels about the troop program, whether he feels he is learning anything, whether he is having fun."

 

here the key phrase is " how he feels about the troop program,"

 

then here

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx

 

Question: What is a board of review, and what is its primary purpose?

Answer: The troop committee conducts a board of review to periodically review each Scout's progress, from Tenderfoot through Life ranks, to encourage him, to learn whether he is enjoying his Scouting experience, and to evaluate the unit's effectiveness in conducting the Scouting program to benefit him. The review presents a good opportunity to monitor the Scout's advancement and keep him on track. It also gives unit leaders a chance to measure the effectiveness of their leadership. The troop committee appoints three to six individuals to conduct the board of review.

 

The Key phrase here is

 

It also gives unit leaders a chance to measure the effectiveness of their leadership.

 

In the 2008 printing of theAdvancement Committee Policies and Procedures BSA publication, this is the first paragraph after the title "Boards of Review"

 

"A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the unit. The unit committee can judge how well the Scout being reviewed is benefiting from the program. The unit leader can

measure the effectiveness of his or her leadership. The Scout can sense that he is, or is not, advancing properly and can be encouraged to make the most of his Scouting experience.

 

Given the above, I can see where some adults would think the Board of Review can also be a time to evaluate the troop program

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[acco40]

Keep in mind that the Committee can, when following the program, have absolutely zero contact with the Scouts except for a BOR. So, yes, feedback from the Scout about the troop is essential.

 

My issue, is that as a SM, the Committee (BOR) rarely gave me any feedback, good or bad, that was gathered from a BOR except for pass/fail (or pass/delay if you prefer).

 

For what it is worth, here is what I gave parents as part of an Advancement Expectations document when their son joined the troop.

 

A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the troop. After a Scout has completed all of the requirements for any rank from Tenderfoot through Life and has had a Scoutmaster conference for that rank, he appears before a board of review composed of three to six members of the troop committee. A Scout should initiate the board of review by asking the Advancement Chair to schedule a Board of Review. The purpose of the review is ,b>not to retest a Scout, but rather to make sure he has completed the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. Each review should also include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life [The Scoutmaster Handbook pg. 121-122]. Neither the Scoutmaster nor the Assistant Scoutmasters should be part of the board. Parents are not allowed to be present during boards of review. Every session should be set up so that members of the board can share a meaningful discussion with the Scout about important matter including his goals, personal growth, and a Scout Spirit.

 

The membership of the board of review for an Eagle Scout candidate is determined by local council policy [The Scoutmaster Handbook pg 122]. A Board of Review for Eagle Scout is conducted by three or four members of the troop and includes a District representative from the Council Advancement Committee. The Scoutmaster is usually present, but is not a reviewer. Scouts who have completed all requirements for a rank prior to their 18th birthday should submit their application and be reviewed and recognized within three months after that date. For Eagle Scout boards of review conducted between tree and six months after the candidates 18th birthday, a statement explaining the reason for the delay must be attached to the Eagle Scout Rank Application when it is submitted to the Eagle Scout Service. If an Eagle Scout board of review will be held after the six months following the candidates 18th birthday, the Eagle Scout must petition the National Boy Scout committee for an extension of time to hold the board of review. The petition must be processed through the local council, detailing the extenuation circumstances that prevented the board of review from being held within the six-month period following the candidates 18 birthday, and be accompanied with a copy of the Eagle Scout Rank Application [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, pg 29].

 

At the end of a review, the Scout will leave the room while board members discuss his qualifications. Then they will call him back in to tell him that he is qualified for his new rank, or to outline very clearly what more he must do in order to successfully complete the requirements. The decision of all boards of review is arrived at through discussion and must be unanimous [Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, pg 29].

 

In addition to reviewing Scouts who have completed requirements for advancement, boards that meet regularly might also choose to meet with Scouts who are not advancing. A board can give those Scouts support and perhaps help them discover ways to overcome obstacles hindering their progress.

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

I agree with 2 and 3 of what you say Beavah, But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.. I have had it stamped out of me that the BOR is NOT "To make sure the boy has learned".. You take it on face value that those who have signed off the requirements have made that determination.. You may re-check that everything is signed off, but again the SM should have done that before agreeing the boy was ready to have a SM conference.

 

I was more geared toward discussing why the BOR should not be done by the same people who run the program.. So I didn't check off everything.. And yes the BOR is to evaluate how the program is doing, for this scout in particular and for all the scouts.

 

The quality unit is a joke, anyone can get that, the only other one we had was a Unit of Honor which went away this year but it was more geared toward the same thing they grade the DE on.. Recruitment of boys, FOS, etc.. Nothing really about how the quality of your program.. An Eagle mill, a normal troop, and a troop that plays basketball or soccar as their entire program can all win the quality awards... Well I guess the sports troop will have to go to monthly sport games for their monthly events..

[Twocubdad]

I agree that getting the Scout perspective of the troop and program needs to be an element of a BOR. I try to make it an element of all my Scoutmaster conferences. We need to listen to what the boys are telling us.

 

Why it seems to get so much emphasis? I think it's a bit of hyperbole trying to check the flood pass/fail, retest oriented boards. I've used it myself trying to re-educate some of the inquisition-minded board members we've had.

 

The pendulum swings back and forth.

[clemlaw]

I have another horrible confession to make. I'm sure it's partially my fuzzy memory after almost 40 years. But I don't remember any of my Boards of Review for Tenderfoot through Life! I have a vague recollection of my Eagle Board of Review, but I don't remember it as being anything particularly traumatic or even memorable.

 

I know I must have had them, but it apparently wasn't as big a deal back in the day. It certainly wasn't an inquisition. If anything, it was probably more of a pat on the back for getting everything done.

 

And I only have one recollection of anyone failing a Board of Review. One of the members of the board was a crumudgeon type, and I remember that one poor kid apparently didn't remember one of his first aid requirements, probably for First Class. The crumudgeon proclaimed that first aid was important, and the kid was sent packing from the Board of Review. He went and brushed up on his skills, and he passed his Board the next week or whatever.

 

That was almost scandalous, and as far as anyone knew, it had never happened in the history of the BSA.

 

Generally, when Scouts were signed off on requirements, they knew the requirement pretty well. And with that one exception, the Board of Review generally agreed.

 

It seems to me that if the program is working relatively well, that's what the Board of Review should be doing. They engage in a formality, and pat the scout on the back. Perhaps on rare occasions, they need to flunk a scout and have him brush up on something. But with a decent program, that should be pretty rare.

 

I remember _doing_ lots of things as a Scout, but the Boards of Review weren't very memorable. And it seems to me that's the way they should be--if everything is running smoothly, they shouldn't be a very memorable experience.

[Beavah]

I agree with 2 and 3 of what you say Beavah, But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.. I have had it stamped out of me that the BOR is NOT "To make sure the boy has learned"..

 

Yah, in that case whoever did the stamping out was wrong, eh?

 

From da ACP&P

The review has three purposes:

1. To make sure the work has been learned and completed.

2. To see how good an experience the scout is having in his unit.

3. To encourage the scout to advance to the next rank

 

Da three things I listed are the three purposes of a board of review. Yeh can even look at more of the text where it says things like "The board should attempt to determine if a good standard of performance has been met."

 

All things in balance, eh? We also don't want BOR's retesting, having lads plan a dinner for them, having a board member fake a heart attack on the scout to see what he does and all that. But just because there's one paragraph on not retesting doesn't mean yeh should ignore all of the other paragraphs about how advancement is used to help boys grow. It's meant to be an intelligent balance.

 

Just like OGE's individual sentences, eh? The reason why we're asking a boy how he feels about the troop program is not to evaluate the troop program. It's to figure out how to help the boy. Should he be encouraged to run for PL? Should he be encouraged to try a particular MB? Should he be helped to have a meeting with his PL about duty rosters? Should the troop look into additional accommodation for his learning disability? All about the boy.

 

Yah, sure, along the way yeh get a wee bit of information about the troop, and a good idea or two. But it's far from the best way of evaluatin' the unit program. For that yeh want the new Journey to Excellence stuff . Yah, sure, and yeh can get some notion, but only if yeh do regular non-advancement boards of review for everyone. Evaluatin' the program based just on the kids advancing makes no sense at all.

 

Beavah

 

[moosetracker]

Beavah - You think you left some parts and pieces out of that..? Seems like what you pulled is taken out of context when you add the following from the same Advancement Policy & Procedure guide..

 

The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review.

l To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank.

2 To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit.

3 To encourage the Scout to progress further.

The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scouts attitude and his acceptance of Scoutings ideals.

 

I can then see the part you pulled out is.. But as they expand on those points again they stress the following..

 

The review is not an examination. The Scout has learned his skill and has been examined. This is a review. The Scout should be asked where he learned his skill, who taught him, and the value he gained from passing this requirement.

The Scout reviews what he did for his rank. From this review, it can be determined whether he did what he was supposed to do. The review also reveals what kind of an experience the

Scout is having in the troop. With that knowledge, the troop leaders can shape the program to meet the needs and interests of the Scouts.

 

So with those additional comments I will agree with your first point, in that you can ask a scout something like.. "Why do you think it is important for you to learn CPR as a scout?" or "Why do you think there are physical fitness requirements".. But the BOR is not the place to ask them to tell you what the points of CPR are, or to tie a bowline hitch for you..

 

But OGE has the part I was refering to in the other post..

 

And it took going to three SM/ASM Specific classes in 3 different districts to go from disagreeing with what they were telling me about not retesting in a BOR to understanding you do not retest.. I am still unsure why this is a point of the specifics course, and never mentioned in the Committee Challenge course.. But then I always stated the Committee Challenge course is a joke.. I do like the on-line cub scouts committee training though, much more useful info in that the the troops version.. Only it wouldn't get into the way to run a BOR..

[Eagledad]

>>But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.

[moosetracker]

Oh we had a bad experience with this troop but the retesting was not part of it.. Maybe because we were still newbies to the program and trying to take the helecopter blades off our heads at the time. But, our son would ace those BOR's.. and since he wasn't their favorite scout, they would make it overly complex.. I though had no issue with my son knowing the stuff and putting these egotistical adults in their place on that account. Maybe I would have had he been constantly flunking them.

 

I even got to sit on the BOR's and saw for myself.. "Here comes Billy, he is a great kid, no need to test him too hard.." Here comes George.. He really isn't scout material, so lets drill him hard".. I was just a newbie learning the ropes from the seasoned people, and thought this is how things were done in scouts.. This Board was known to flunk you 2 or 3 times.. The most I knew of in my brief 1 year history with them was a kid flunked 5 times.. But it was mostly over not putting on the proper uniform, or proper patches on the uniform or whatever.. He was being stubborn and so was the board. My son was probably one of the few scouts to pass first time, who was not one of the "favorites"..

 

Like I said, we went to the Specifics training and disagreed with the nambie-pambie softening of the BOR.. What was it's purpose if not to retest?? So the kid can do the skill once get signed off and forget it after thate??

 

Like I said took alot of kicking to kick that and other things we learned that were wrong from our first troop.. I guess my husband being Eagle didn't help either.. BOR were about retesting when he was a kid too..

 

I really don't see anything wrong with retesting still.. It is just that I have learned it is not the right place at the board. That is not the function of the committee to do the retesting.. And the biggest thing of all I learned.. Was that I always thought the drilling and retesting was preparing them for an Eagle board that would drill and retest.. I think my turning point was being told that one of the purposes for the BOR IS to prepare the scout for the Eagle board.. And the EBOR does NOT drill and retest.. Therefore we are scaring the scouts into thinking that the EBOR would be something to fear.. That our questioning should be in line with questions that may be asked at an EBOR..

 

So then comes the question "If not to Retest.. What is the function of a BOR??"..

 

And that is where we get the answer.. It is to Find out from the scout how he is doing.. What we can improve in the program.. Encourage him to continue his advancement.. Find out what he likes about our program (thus what we are doing well).. and to help him get use to doing a BOR similar to an EBOR with people he does not associate with that much with a setup process and questions that are similar to the EBOR.

 

Someday if National changes there mind and decides BOR to drill and retest... No worries, I can polish up the whip again..

[Eagledad]

>>So then comes the question "If not to Retest.. What is the function of a BOR??"..

[SR540Beaver]

I think I've revealed this here before, but our troop does a retest. A good number of us ASM's don't agree with it, but it is how the SM wants to do it. I'd say we follow the program pretty religiously until it comes to this retesting. We have what we refer to as an ASM conference that preceeds the SM conference. It is at this ASM conference where a boy gets retested on his rank advancement stuff before getting to schedule an SM conference. The SM conference and BOR are pretty much the BSA standard fare. Our SM is a great guy and has run a great program for 10 years now. That being said, he can sometimes be the 800 lbs gorilla in the room and there are things he won't budge on....like doing ASM conferences. You pick your fights. Many of us have agreed that when the day comes that he retires, the ASM conference goes out the window.....because it adds to the requirements which is against BSA policy. The other issue is that the SM has never really told the ASM's HOW he wants these ASM conferences to be done. Me personally, I have a light touch. The younget the boy and the lower the rank, the more I let things slide. I also take the boy's personality into consideration. Some kids just aren't overly confident and assertive. You have to draw things out of them. WE lost a good kid just like this a few years ago over an ASM conference. The ASM was a lawyer, so he stuck to the letter of the law more than the spirit of the law. He had a luandry list of items this kid had to do perfectly to pass. They did the conference over three different days....several hours per day....and he failed. It wasn't that he didn't know his stuff, it was how he was treated. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me that I would never put too much stock in retesting and that we would eventually eliminate this practice from our troop.

[moosetracker]

Oh I have no problem having the older scouts on the board.. As stated, (don't know this post or a different, we now have about 3 posts about BOR at the minute).. We have had scouts on the board.. And my husband & I pushed the idea, get it in for one or two rounds, then someone pulls it out.. Mostly SM who doesn't want too many boys taken away from the troop meeting.

 

Why do we think it a good idea? Before going to their EBOR they get a different perspective of the BOR from the other side of the table.. It is a great teaching tool, I think someone else stated they would sit in (with other adults, not other scouts) and it taught him more about being interviewed and interviewing others, a teenager learning interview technics is not a bad thing. He is of the age of finding his first job. It relaxes the scouts who are in the BOR, and they may have different way to ask a question.

 

Our district EBOR put my son on the board at 18, he also helps relax the scouts due to his age.

 

But, I still think it should be mostly with adults the scout doesn't know well. For the purpose of helping them prepare for the EBOR, and for interviewing too.. You want them to relax for the BOR, but you also want them to have some butterflies about talking to strangers when there is some pressure to do well, because it means getting something that is important to you.

 

They are always doing the advancement skills with the other scouts and ASM.. If the BOR is with them, it would not have the same type of tension you want them to experience under a friendly, safe environment..

 

Yes I do agree, I hear more from my son and his friends when they are just talking outside of scouts. Or from scouts in a car as you drive them to an event, and they forget you are in the car and just are talking with each other.. And from mostly the complaints of parents, few take the time to praise the program.. For them "no news is good news"..

[Beavah]

Yah, moosetracker, I think you're makin' my point, eh? Yep, there are those bits about not being an examination, and there are those bits about ensuring the scout has learned and achieved to an appropriate level. Then when yeh add in the other bits like "A Boy Scout Badge recognizes what a young man is able to do, it is not a reward for what he has done" and the Rules & Regulations bits like

 

Education is the chief function of the Scouting movement and it shall be the basis of the advancement program.

 

In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploration.

 

All advancement procedures shall be administered under conditions that harmonize with the aims and purposes of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

yeh get the full picture. Those are the things that you left out in your selective quotes, eh?

 

The point is that just grabbin' onto one quote or another isn't the point. Yeh have to read the whole thing, beginning with the Rules & Regulations. Then, even more important, yeh have to use the program to achieve the aims.

 

The problem I see is da same one Eagledad sees. A few hovercraft parents have gone so hog-wild over da one paragraph about not retesting (and the half a sentence about not adding to requirements) that they've lost track of the mission.

 

A BOR is first about making sure a boy has learned, because that is the basis of the advancement program in the Rules & Regulations. So to do a BOR well, and to respect the effort the boy has put in to learning, yeh have to ask substantive questions about what he is supposed to have learned. The lad spent 6 months or more of his life working hard to learn, eh? Shouldn't the BOR acknowledge that effort by lettin' him show his stuff? To let him know that that work was valuable? To have the lad show first aid by building a splint on the spot might be retesting, but to ask him how he would build a splint and evaluating his understanding is not.

 

Otherwise, every time we asked a boy to recite the Oath or Law or explain it in his own words we would be illicitly "retesting" da Tenderfoot requirement, eh? But remember the Rules & Regs - our advancement procedures must harmonize with the aims. Since the Oath and Law help get us to the Aims, it's OK to "retest". By contrast, just askin' a lad how he feels about the program, or giving him credit because he did a task just once to get the signoff is subtracting from the requirements and expectations, and that's not supposed to happen.

 

Honestly, in a strong scouting program, kids love to "show their stuff" at a BOR. It's a great builder of confidence to be an "expert" in front of a group of TC members, and it often breaks down the nervousness of the lad so that the rest of the board proceeds well. In my experience, where yeh get the most strident "you can only ask a boy how he feels" BORs is in units that know they are doin' a poor job in helpin' the lads really learn and grow.

 

At the same time, as my fellow Beaver points out, the "examination" thing comes up sometimes too, eh? It is possible for units to go hog-wild in the other direction.

 

What we want, and the reason why when yeh read the guidebooks yeh can find these seemingly contradictory statements, is balance. Value learning, make sure the lad has learned, but also figure out how he's doin' in the program and encourage further achievement. Subjecting a TF to a six-hour conference does not encourage further achievement. Nor does rubber-stampin' advancement without a few questions to show that the time he spent learning was worthwhile. To use the program properly, yeh have to find the balance in the middle.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

see, the argument of testing at boards of review always confuses me. I hear that the reason for the retesting is to be sure the scout knows his skill, which is even more confusing.

 

Once a scout learns a skill, the troops program should afford him so many opportunities to use that skill that there is no reason to doubt the skill is learned. If the troops program does not allow opportunities to use scout skills, why teach them.

 

I think we have accepted that scout skills are not a once and done kind of thing, its a skill the scout needs to have for the future. Unless he plies that skill, it could be lost so its the troop's program that gives him the time and place to use that skill.