Limit Number of Mbs with One Counselor?

[AdvT77C]

Does your troop limit the number of merit badges a scout can earn with one counselor?

I have heard that BSA regs state that you can earn unlimited merit badges but in practice, what does your troop do to inspire the boys to work with various adults?

[The Blancmange]

Our troop does not place any such limit. I think the bigger concern, if you find yourself in a position to be asking this question, is whether the MBC's are registered to counsel too many badges. No single individual can have the mastery of virtually the entire list of common MB's. When someone is registered for too many badges (what that number is is a subject for another thread), they can only be doing a superficial job and defeating the purpose of the system.

[clemlaw]

Yes, I also think that if the MB program is done right, the question shouldn't really come up. Because as a general rule, a MBC should be someone with specialized expertise in a particular subject, and more often than not, that person will be outside the troop.

 

Now, there are certainly exceptions to this general rule. In fact, the exceptions could actually outnumber the cases where the general rule applies.

 

For example, when I was in Scouts, there were two exceptions that probably accounted for about two thirds of my merit badges. First of all, a _small_ handful of merit badges were generally done as activities within the troop. (I'm loath to use the word "classes", but an even smaller subset of that group were "classes".) These were for merit badges that everyone needed, and that didn't require any particular expertise. Most notably, this included the Citizenship merit badges. Since the counselors were indeed, good citizens, they had the required expertise.

 

The second group of exceptions were the merit badges earned at summer camp, such as camping, cooking, canoeing, etc., and they were generally signed off by the camp staff. Again, these were not necessarily "classes"--we were learning and doing activities at camp, and most of these translated into merit badge requirements.

 

But for the rest of the merit badges (roughly a third, I would guess), the scout generally did call up an adult outside the troop, who was someone he didn't know, and this person had some particular expertise in the subject. That really adds an important part to the program, I think. It's really an important skill having to call an unkown adult and saying, "Hello, Mr. ____. I'm Tommy Tenderfoot from Troop 4321 and I would like to make an appointment to start on _____ merit badge."

 

At University of Scouting this year, I decided to sign up for the MBC training, and I was very surprised to discover that I was the only one there who wasn't there on behalf of some troop. Now I'll grant that anyone who is present at University of Scouting is probably there because they are scouters with a troop, and not just community experts who are willing to be MBC's. But still, from the way the discussion went, I got the distinct impression that earning merit badges is now a troop activity. I hope I'm wrong, because doing it the other way is a lot better way to run the program (with numerous exceptions, as mentioned above.)

 

Also, at one other session, a scouter casually mentioned something to the effect that "we" (referring to his troop) had a field trip to ___ for ____ merit badge. But as far as I know, he had no particular expertise in that subject. He got his expertise only by going along on the field trip.

 

I kept my mouth shut, but I couldn't help but thinking that was the wrong way to do it. Yes, they got a lot more scouts signed off on that merit badge by making it a troop activity. But when I was a scout, I got a lot more out of that particular merit badge by having to call up Mr. _____ and make an appointment to come over and work on it.

 

If merit badges are a troop activity, then you probably do have to worry about limits. With community experts, you probably don't have to worry about it. In fact, the limits might get in the way if the program is done right. Right off the top of my head, I would say that a scout shouldn't earn more than about three merit badges from the same "troop counsellor". There's no need to do so, because most of the adults should be competent to counsel many of the "common" merit badges.

 

But on the other hand, there might be some MBC's in the community who are perfectly competent to counsel multiple merit badges. For example, one guy with a background in electronics might be an excellent counsellor for Radio, Electronics, and maybe a couple more scientific merit badges. And he might be the best (or only) counselor for them. In that case, it would be unfair to impose a limit.

 

So my advice is to not impose a limit, but instead start re-building a culture where merit badges are seen first as an opporunity for scouts to go out into the community and find experts to counsel them. Yes, you still might need to run a "class" now and then for the Citizenship merit badges. But treat those cases as the exception, rather than the general rule.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

[shortridge]

It's an easy answer. The SM can direct them to a particular counselor or suggest they pick from a list. Scouts don't necessarily get to choose their counselor.

 

I did all my Citizenship work with outside counselors. No need for a class. It was easy, and fun. If we approach certain "boring" badges with the "class" mindset, then of course they're going to be boring for the Scouts!

[John-in-KC]

Scouts don't necessarily get to choose their counselor.

 

 

Scouts SHOULD NOT select their own Counselor. One of the roles of the Scoutmaster, as denoted in program literature (Requirements #33215) is to ASSIGN the Counselor to the boy.

 

The Scoutmaster is the Guardian of the Methods (since people whined about him being the Gatekeeper).

 

[Beavah]

Hi AdvT77c, and welcome to da forums!

 

The BSA puts no limit, but some councils put limits on da number of MBs any given counselor can sign up to counsel.

 

Mostly, I think this sort of thing is better handled by counseling than by policy, eh? If yeh help troops to understand the goals of the MB program and get the kids usin' it well, it's usually not an issue. Da SM just sends 'em to different folks.

 

Where yeh sometimes see an issue is with parents, especially parent SMs, who are driven by advancement. Occasionally then yeh need a temporary rule or policy just to get things in line for a bit.

 

 

[dg98adams]

troop limit the number of merit badges a scout can earn with one counselor

 

I suppose only in that the SM or person designated by SM will make available MBC info to a Scout.

 

Merit Badge Councilors are a District/Council function and that's where approval to be a MBC occurs.

 

Scouts are/should be encouraged to seek out MBC's from the District/Council list. BSA does not say how few/many or that mom/dad can't be one. They do require that those who want to be MBC's be registered (no cost), take YPT (in our council), and complete the MBC form - assuming they get approved via the background check, etc....

 

 

 

[artjrk]

I have talked to a number of our MB counselors who put a limit on themselves as to how many MBs they will do for a particular scout. I think this type of self monitoring works best.

 

Side note; As a SM, I personally do not think it is my job to tell a scout you must use "this" counselor. Instead I can recommend or suggest but it is up to the Scout and the Counselors to get together. I don't need that bit of control over the boys.

[BS-87]

I know of units that will put limits on MBC's saying they probably don't have enough expertise to teach more than 4 different MB's well.

[shortridge]

A four-MB-per-MBC limit seems a bit arbitrary. Any good Scoutmaster or ASM should be able to counsel at least the outdoors MBs - any combination of Camping, Cooking, Wilderness Survival, Pioneering, Orienteering, Backpacking or Hiking. That's seven right there. I could do all of those based on my Scouting and personal outdoor experience, plus Journalism, Communication and the Citizenships from my professional life. So that's 12 I could counsel without breaking a sweat.

 

Think about your own education, career, hobbies and interests. Most adults have a high level of expertise in more than four subjects! There's the local attorney with an undergrad degree in art who leads the local Toastmasters chapter and has been riding horses since age 12 who also raises Great Danes. You've got your carpenter who started his own business and sets up elaborate model railroad displays when he's not fly-fishing and coaching the high school track and field team. The list could go on.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Proud Eagle]

GSLAC has, at least in the past, been infamaous about adding extra requirements regarding number of MBs each couneslor could teach (6 I think), the maximum number Scouts could get with their parents/scout leaders, etc and still count for Eagle (plus the whole "White Card" business that has finally been fixed, but that many SMs don't realise).

 

Now in my experience I earned all of my MBs either through the troop or at camp. That isn't ideal, but we didn't have any outside list to draw from. If we wanted something either each of us individually or the troop had to find a counselor. My troop also frowned on using school work toward MB requiremetns, thus I completed the Chemistry requirements at least 3 or 4 times over in high school but never got the badge, and the same with Reading, and the list could go on... not that I really cared, MBs were a necessary annoyance as far as I was concerned as a Scout.

 

At one time I was officially approved to counsel something like 30 or 40 different badges. The reason for this was that as a camp program director I had to have the ability to at least sign a blue card for everything we offered, just in case some sort of paperwork mix-up or if someone under age worked with the Scout on a requirment and needed an adult to sign it off (youth can't be MB counselors, though they can be given permission to sign off on advancement requirements, which is interesting).

 

Realistically I could probably instruct a dozen or so.

 

Now how about this unfortunate situation:

My council does not actively maintain a MB counselor list. Virtually all MBs counseled based purely on SM approval with no district or council involvement. I got an aquaintance of mine registered to do coin collecting, and neither our service center staff nor our Sr. DE even knew there was a particular form to register as a MB counselor other than just the adult application, so I looked it up online and printed a copy (which I suspect someone had an interesting time figuring out what to do with when it was turned in). I wonder, would that technically mean all of the Eagles here for the last decade or so are somewhat illegitimate?

[Basementdweller]

Recently hear of a SM's son who had the SM as his MC for every single merit badge. They never went to summer camp, it was too expensive. He just had his EBOR and was found ready.

 

 

Unbelievable in my book.

 

My son, Now a Tenderfoot, Has three merit badges from three different councilers. Two from his first year program at summer camp and one he wanted to take on his own, he called and made all the arrangements on his own. I was merely driver for the two boys and the second adult during the sessions.

 

 

 

This is one of those things, A person needs to decide if it is better to have a 14 year old eagle who rushes thru advancement to be and eagle, or A person who believes it is better to have a 17.9 year old eagle. I believe most on this board would agree that the 17 year old had a richer more fullfilling scouting career.

 

I also don't like double dipping in any form.

[evmori]

When I was a SM, I never was my son's MB counselor. Why? Because he needed to learn how to deal with other people plus I didn't want it to look like there was anything remotely questionable going on.

[Venividi]

artjrk wrote: I personally do not think it is my job to tell a scout you must use "this" counselor. Instead I can recommend or suggest but it is up to the Scout and the Counselors to get together. I don't need that bit of control over the boys.

 

I understand and agree with the sentiment of not needing that much control over the boys. I would raise though, that the purpose of the SM responibility to assign counselors is not to control the boys. Rather, it is to provide for a merit badge experience that is consistent with the aims of scouting.

 

Some merit badge counselors are better at holding to the requirements of the badge than are others. A SM should want to make sure that the counselors that he refers scouts to adhere to the standard of requiring no more and no less than required. When he/she knows of counselors that do or don't, it enhances the scouts experience by the SM making an appropriate referal.

 

True story: A friend that counsels for citizenship in the world told me of an experience where a boy came to him for the badge. The scout came minimally prepared, not meeting many of the requirements. The counselor explained the additional work needed to meet the requirements as written. The scout did not show up for the next appointment. Rather, he went shopping for a counselor that had very lax standards on meeting the requirements. Scouts are human, and will often take the road with short cuts, if available.

 

I participated in a recent BOR where I asked the candidate about his experiences with merit badges, which were meaningful, which were not, and why. His response was that the badges that he found most meaningful were the citizenship badges. (The SM assigns a known counselor that he knows has high standards. The least meaningful ones were the ones that were taught in a group setting at summer camp and "merit badge university", saying that often one scout provided an answer to a question, and all scouts got credit for it. Thats not how it is supposed to work, but is all too frequent.

 

It is easy for scouts to get their 21 badges at summer camp and MB university. Many, such as the citizenship badges, taught in classroom settings. I know of one or two troops that will not approve their scouts for taking the citizenship and first aid badges at summer camp because of the classroom setting. When done correctly, the scouts get some great experiences in calling an adult that they dont know, and the opportuinty to meet with and be mentored by exceptional people. But that does take work and oversight to assure that the MB program in the troop are in alignment with the aims of scouting. It does not happen automatically.

[Basementdweller]

Soooo, is limiting the number of merit badges that a scout can get from a merit badge councilor adding to the requirements??????/

 

a slippery slope.