Board of Review turns scout down- how to move forward?

[acco40]

There are advancement rules and there are traditions. Let's look at the first rank advancement - Tenderfoot (no, Scout is not a rank).

 

 

Requirement 14 is Participate in a Scoutmaster Conference. What if a Scout decided that the day after he fulfilled the joining requirements he reviewed the Tenderfoot reqs and said, whoa, #14 sure looks easy and asked for a SMC? Nothing states that the requirements need to be done in order. So ...

 

Most troop have a tradition that the 'Scout Spirit' reqs are either signed off by the SM or their designate and usually after all other reqs have been completed except for the SMC. Then, the Scoutmaster (or their designate) hold the SMC - part social, part learning, part seeing if the boy has passed the reqs. If they feel the boys really has not passed a requirement (I've had demonstrate how to display, raise, lower and fold the American flag signed off by one of my SAs because the Scout told him how he would do it by reading from his handbook!). Well, I didn't "remove" his sign-off but I delayed his BOR until he demonstrated the task. So tradition has it that the SMC req is the last one before proceding to the BOR.

 

 

I've had Scouts, who owned a full uniform, show up for a BOR and the board requested that he return in uniform before they procede. A legitimate request. Now, if board does not pass a Scout (or delays advancement if you prefer that vernacular), they should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily and specify what must be done to rework the Scout's weakness and schedule another BOR for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to the Scout who is turned down for rank advancement , confirming what was discussed. A Scout may appeal the decision of the board. After the BOR, the Scoutmaster is informed of the decisions made. Those are rules. Just like BOR membership rules - Scouters only for example, many don't follow them but that does not make them any less of a rule.

 

 

Some who really don't know the program or purpose of a BOR may ask, "If all the requirements are signed off, how can a Scout not pass? They can't test the Scout at a BOR!" Well, junior lawyers, one of the purposes is to make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rand requirements. So what if a Scoutmaster signed the wrong book? What if someone signed off on a requirement that was delegated that responsibility by the Scoutmaster? I've had parents (usually former den leaders) sign-of fon there childs handbook. What if, during a discussion of Scout spirit the Scout maintains that he follows the Oath and Law during troop meetings and outings but loves to rape, pillage and plunder during non-Scout time and flatly states that this should be okay? Also, another purpose of a BOR is to assess the program the boys are receiving so it is perfectly legit to ask a Scout to tie a bowline. If 10 out of 10 Scouts can't, well maybe that is a good indication about the program that is being delivered. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[skeptic]

In my many years as SM, I have perhaps had 2 or 3 times when I would deem the conference to be a recommendation to NOT proceed with a board. That being said, as noted, the scout may still request one. Once that occurred, and I gave the advancement chair my thoughts on why the scout was not ready, so they knew my reasoning. I would think, in those rare occasions of this issue, that a SM would do this. I did tell the scout that I would pass my recommendations to the board, so it was not a surprise. He was given a new date, with specific goals to overcome the concerns, and he took the initiative and did it. He handled it better than his parent, frankly. Thought briefly she might pull him from the unit, as it was a Life board.

 

He eventually did complete his Eagle, and actually talked about the Life board to his Eagle board, I was told. At least in this case, it seems to have been a growing experience.

[Crew21_Adv]

Mike and Fellow Scouters,

 

 

Greetings!

 

I am responding to this post late. There have already been many beneficial suggestions given to mike about how to handle this process. I'd only like to comment and respond back to Perdidochas on my interpretation. (and BTW Perdidochas, Im not picking on you; Im just asking you and others to re-read Mikes post from another perspective)

 

 

Mike stated - there is no issue with either myself or the parents disagreeing with the decision

Perdidochas asked - If you agree that the BOR did the right thing, why did you let him proceed to the BOR in the first place?

 

I don't believe Mike was stating that he agrees with or that he endorses the Board's decision. My own interpretation is that Mike and the parents are accepting of the Board's decision. (Otherwise, why have a board of review at all?) Although the double negatives "no issue" and "disagreeing", may seem the opposite, as if they fully and completely agree that the Scout is not ready for Life Scout before he entered the BOR. But I interpret it as acceptance, that the board was not unanimous in seeing this young pass ready for the responsibility of Life Scout.

 

Now.. Like many fellow forum members have recommended, the board should have provided areas of improvement and steps to achieve their expected knowledge and performance of a Life Scout.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[SeattlePioneer]

I can give an example of how this kind of thing happens:

 

 

A Scout had his father as Committee Chair. The father signed off pretty much all the boys advancement requirements, including merit badges and such.

 

My own assessment was that this boy commanded Scout skills at about the Tenderfoot level, was the biggest whiner and complainer in the troop and had little conception of what it meant to "do your best."

 

The only time I saw him doing his best was working to entice female camp staff into conversations at meals. That showed he had real potential if only he applied himself!

 

When the Scoutmaster turned him down at his Life Scoutmaswter Conference, the father signed off on his advancement without a Board of Review.

 

By the time of his Eagle Scoutmaster conference, the father was no longer Committee Chair. The Scoutmaster declined to sign off on the Scoutmaster Conference.

 

 

The father moved the boy to a different troop composed of boys who all has Asberger's syndrome as this boy did. I don't know for a fact how that worked out in the end.

[Proud Eagle]

Seatle,

 

That is terrible. Talk about setting the completely wrong example. Giving out awards in that way is fraud, deceit, a type of lie, and a form of corruption. By my reckoning that adult is not fit to be a member of BSA.

 

Doesn't the Scoutmaster determine who may be delegated the responsibility of signing off on requirements, and further can even restrict which requirements? I know since this was the CC he could have replaced the SM if it turned into a battle of wills, but short of that it would seem the SM had the power to stop this (plus the COR should have removed the CC from the unit for that sort of stunt). Not to mention don't advancement applications require more than one signature? Who counter-signed the advancement report? Were they part of the fraud or just an unwitting dupe? Who approved this guy as MB counselor? Who approved the Scout to work on those badges?

 

Yeesh, and I thought I had seen some strange and even shady stuff in Scouting. That is right on the level with the DEs that create fake units to make their numbers...

[mikecummings157]

Folks- Thanks for all of the great feedback. Here are a few more details requested.

 

1. He was turned down for not taking responsibility for his actions as a Junior Leader in the Troop and also for not showing respect to others, specifically the BOR members. I'd rather not disclose the details on the board. These are areas where myself and the ASM's working with him for the last few years also.

2. He was called back into the room and was given the reasons for being turned down at this time, but was very upset and left without saying much.

3. I spoke to his dad, one of our ASM's, and he stated that his son didn't understand why he was turned down. This is understandable given how upset he was.

4. I asked the BOR to put their findings in writing to make sure it was clear exactly why he was turned down at this time and what he needed to do in order to appear back before the BOR. I'm not trying to act like an HR dept, as someone mentioned, but rather want to make sure the message he gets is consistent. After some resistance, I did receive the letter, which is very well written and should make it clear to the scout.

5. His father & I are going to sit down with him and review this to get him back on track. He's a great kid and a future Eagle in my mind, he just hit a bump in the road he needs to overcome.

[Beavah]

Yah, nice job mikecummings157.

 

On behalf of a grateful nation, thank you for your hard work and effort with our upcoming citizens!

 

Beavah

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Proud Eagle,

 

 

Th Scoutmaster was a nice guy, but not capable of functioning very much as a leader. He was easily pushed around by the CC.

 

The Committee Chair fancied himself an intellectual among pygmies, so of course whatever he did was more than justified. He never held Troop Committee meetings either because "no one was interested."

 

 

He wound up threatening to leave as Committee Chair, and I took him up on his offer in a hurry! We found a reasonably competent parent to be CC and started hiolding Committee Meetings and such, which people WERE interested in attending.

 

The former Committee Chair attended Committee Meetings and continued to work with the program, but I personally backed up and encouraged the Scoutmaster in turning down the Scout for his Eagle Scoutmaster conference.

 

(By the way, I was mistaken in saying the Scout had a Tenderfoot level of Scouting skills. Upon further thought he was a moderately competent Second Class).

 

As I mmentioned, the boy wound up moving to a Troop of Asperger Syndrome boys, which was a good thing I suspect.

 

The father was a pretty sophisticated guy, editor of a newspaper wire service and he clearly recognized that his son had challenges he was going to have to face in life. But despite that he was grossly overprotective of his son, which let the boy keep sliding off the hook of being responsible.

 

Well, we do our best. Sometimes that's not a high standard.

 

 

 

[mikecummings157]

Update- I met with the Scout and reviewed what he needed to do in order to move forward. He said he understood what he should have done differently and I believe he did based on the conversation. However, he did tell me he was strongly considering transferring out of our troop.

 

His feedback on the BOR was that he was never made to feel welcome and was continually asked the same question over and over until he got upset, since his answer wasn't accepted. His father also noted that when his son became upset, the BOR wasn't stopped at that point nor was there any effort to get either himself or I to come help his son. The scout was just sent out of the room to wait for the board's decision.

 

We discussed his options for staying or going and that any issues he had wouldn't go away by moving to another troop. He agreed to let me know.

 

I received an email yesterday stating that he was going to transfer to another troop. This really hurts, as I've had this boy since he was a Tiger Cub. This also costed our troop one of the few experienced ASM's we have (his dad). I wished him well and told him that if he needed any help on his path to Eagle he could still come to me.

 

Now I have to tell the Committee that we've lost this boy and provide them the feedback as to why. I fully agree that "feedback is a gift", but don't expect much from most (not all) of the Committee other than defensiveness.

 

Has anyone out there been through something like this? It is the season for giving, so I'd love some feedback!

[shortridge]

His father also noted that when his son became upset, the BOR wasn't stopped at that point nor was there any effort to get either himself or I to come help his son. The scout was just sent out of the room to wait for the board's decision.

 

I'm confused as to what the father's point was here. How upset was this kid? Breaking down into tears? Getting angry and loud? If neither of those, why would the BOR members have summoned either you or his father to "help"?

 

A Life Scout should be able to stand on his own two feet in front of a board of review without getting rattled, IMHO.

[John-in-KC]

Mike,

 

The best approach for your situation is to ask for a friendly cup of coffee offsite with the CC, the COR, and the Unit Commissioner. That should be a private enough grouping to make sure frank airing of the situation happens. I do hope your CC has your back, and you his. That is how matters should be. If so, he'll understand the need to cover your back in short order!

 

I cannot give you advice on what to say, mainly because I think you know in your heart what you want to say and why.

 

I can say that this needs to be done in a smaller forum. Doing a Scoutmaster Report in front of the Committee that sends a message of "Gee, thanks for helping...NOT!" isn't going to help you, them or the situation.

[acco40]

Adults are not perfect. My take,

 

1. He was turned down for not taking responsibility for his actions as a Junior Leader in the Troop and also for not showing respect to others, specifically the BOR members. The BOR should not be making the decision about his performance as a Junior Leader - that falls into the Scoutmaster's domain. If there is a "respect" issue to BOR members but the SM has signed off on Scout Spirit - there needs to be a sit down with the Advancement Coordinator or whomever normally chairs BORs and the Scoutmaster. Obviously, they don't see eye to eye on this issue.

 

2. He was called back into the room and was given the reasons for being turned down at this time, but was very upset and left without saying much. A BOR should be able to give feedback without upsetting the Scout. Not sure if the Scout has an emotional issue or just an insensitive and/or unskilled BOR.

 

3. I spoke to his dad, one of our ASM's, and he stated that his son didn't understand why he was turned down. This is understandable given how upset he was. Thus the need to convey the reasons in writing - immediately.

 

4. I asked the BOR to put their findings in writing to make sure it was clear exactly why he was turned down at this time and what he needed to do in order to appear back before the BOR. I'm not trying to act like an HR dept, as someone mentioned, but rather want to make sure the message he gets is consistent. After some resistance, I did receive the letter, which is very well written and should make it clear to the scout. Correct approach, sort of, but bad timing. The letter should go directly to the Scout, not his father, not the Scoutmaster.

 

5. His father & I are going to sit down with him and review this to get him back on track. He's a great kid and a future Eagle in my mind, he just hit a bump in the road he needs to overcome. I'd have the meeting with the Scout alone (in view of others) and then convey the same with his father immediately afterward. The Scout probably needs more experience working with other adults without a parent present (just a guess on my part).

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

Too hard to trouble-shoot these things by remote, mikecummings157.

 

From what yeh describe, you and your other volunteers did the job that you were supposed to.

 

Kids always have the option not to live up to our expectations and to go look for a unit or activity that's "easier".

 

Generally speakin', when that happens, one of two things is goin' on. Either the boy is just butting heads and needs to be told "no" and then go find a new place to start over (and do the hard work of building new friendships based on what he "learned"), or the troop was too focused on advancement.

 

So if you're lookin' for something to reflect on with your committee, I'd ask yourself that question, eh? Is your troop too focused on advancement? Most of the time when boys leave because of an advancement thing, that's the reason, eh? There's no other reason for them to stay around. No deep sense of Patrol Spirit. No real commitment to leading younger boys. Not enough fun and outdoor adventure. No special relationships with older scout and adult friends. No sense of personal accomplishment outside of getting badges.

 

If yeh think this lad was a "bad loss" - a boy who shouldn't have gone rather than one for whom going was the lesson he needed to learn - then yeh need to look carefully at how well you're usin' the other 7 Methods in your program. Advancement shouldn't be the reason a boy stays or goes, eh? It's just a small feature of the program.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinkin' it was the BOR that caused it. It's never da real reason.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[CalicoPenn]

"Don't make the mistake of thinkin' it was the BOR that caused it. It's never da real reason."

 

Unless it was the real reason (not neccessarily disagreeing with Beavah that it might not be but I am disagreeing with the absolute "Never" because we should all know by now that absolutes aren't usually defensible). Given the feedback you shared that he wasn't made to feel welcome from the get go and that he felt badgered by repetitive questions, it seems he might have looked at how the BOR members treated him and came to the conclusion that no matter how much he worked on his own issues, it wouldn't make a whit of difference to the folks that served on his BOR. Something happened in that BOR to make him distrust the members of the BOR enough to believe that he would never get a fair shake in your Troop. It doesn't take long for respect to be lost - and based on the feedback from the BOR (that he didn't show the BOR respect) and from the Scout (that the BOR wouldn't accept his answers) I suspect that this was not a case of a Scout not going into the BOR with a lack of respect but of the members of the BOR acting in some manner that caused the lad to lose respect for them. Now most of us can hide our new-found disdain for people who we have suddenly lost respect for - at least long enough to be socially graceful until we can exit the situation - teenagers are still learning those skills.

 

Keep in mind this too. Fathers who are experienced (and I assume you also mean trained) ASM's generally don't let their sons just transfer to a different Troop when they hit what some might see as a minor bump in the road. Especially fathers that aren't angry about their son's not "passing" a BOR. And boys don't leave Troops where they like and respect their Scoutmasters (as it appears he does in your case) over what some might percieve as a minor bump in the road.

 

Something happened in that BOR to turn that Scout out of your Troop. A wise Scoutmaster would spend time over the course of the next few months to have a post-BOR SM Conference to gather feedback from the Scouts that go through the process. If their are bumps in the BOR process, this is the only way you're going to find out what it is.

 

One last thing - you haven't just lost this Scout and an experienced ASM. You've gained the potential to lose more Scouts - friends of this Scout who may decide to follow him to his new Troop.

 

 

[mikecummings157]

Thanks for the great feedback.

 

In response to Shortridge: "How upset was this kid? Breaking down into tears? Getting angry and loud?" The answers are yes and yes. This was the primary reason he was turned down at this time, as he should be able to stand on his own two feet in front of a board of review without getting rattled.

 

Is response to John-in-KC: No, I don't think the CC or the COR have my back. They were both part of the BOR and argued against my insistence that we provide the scout prompt feedback in writing.