3 yrs in Boy Scouts, Tenderfoot not awarded..

[NJCubScouter]

Concernedparent, have the boys (or their parents) requested that the requirement be interpreted differently? Or that some accommodation be made? Or asked the Scoutmaster if he has some suggestion to resolve this problem?

 

In other words, do we know for sure that the SM is being unreasonable? Or is this just a matter of poor communications?

 

 

[Twocubdad]

My issue with this requirement is that at Tenderfoot it's the wrong time to make this stand. If you were dealing with 16- or 17-year-old Life Scouts and wanted to press this as a Personal Fitness requirement, okay.

 

But this is frequently one of the first requirements boy's work on after crossing over and is often done in a group setting. Creating what is a near impossible requirement for certain boys this early in the game isn't right. It's essentially creating a "weeder" requirement right at the start.

 

And I would really have concerns that a troop would allow a boy to stay at Scout for three years without advancing. If the troop is going to stand hard on the requirement, then two years ago someone should have taken these boys under their wing and helped them with the workouts to get them through it. Excluding them from the advancement program for that long is wrong, too.

 

What do you do about it? It's hard to say. It is the Scoutmaster's call. If other adults in the troop agree with you, perhaps approaching him together could help change his mind. The boys could appeal the SM's definition of "improvement" to the district or council advancement committee, but I wouldn't really recommend that as it's very divisive. If the SM won't budge, maybe it's time to look for another troop.

 

Edited part -- I like NJ's approach to talking with the SM.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[BadenP]

I think NJ is right, this seems to be an issue of poor communications and maybe a SM who is a little too anal retentive in interpreting requirements, but three years as a Tenderfoot come on now there is definitely some serious issues in this troop. On the flip side it sounds like these boys definitely need some fitness training, but to hold up a rank for one pushup is just not right. Maybe The Biggest Loser tv show could do a scout special with Mazzuca and Tico along with a group of overweight scouts working toward the Fitness MB as an inspirational training piece for all scouts and their leaders who are seriously overweight.

[Thomas54]

 

 

We don't even have a place to do pull-ups. In the past we have rigged poles across trees but these haven't been the best. Either the poles are too thick for the tenderfoot's hands or scout in charge of lashing up the pole didn't do the best job and scout stays put while pole comes down.

 

We just look for improvement somewhere. A little faster, a little longer jump. He doesn't have to show an across the board improvement in each category.

 

It is highly unlikely that we hold up an active scout for three years at tenderfoot over this requirement. We would find away to get him through this. Either bird dog him at every meeting or ask his parents to work with him.

 

 

 

[clemlaw]

We didn't have this requirement when I was in Scouts. I was the least athletic kid around, and I don't think I did a complete pull-up ever in my life.

 

But for some strange reason, I was capable of doing basically an infinite number of sit-ups.

 

So let's assume that for the first test, in my youthful exuberance, I decided to do some insanely large number of sit-ups. Thirty days later, would I be obligated to repeat that same number, plus one?

 

IMHO, these kinds of questions call for the application of a little bit of common sense. And if a kid is held back for three years, it seems to me that the common sense might be lacking somewhere.

[Beavah]

Ah, the dread pullup requirement.

 

Welcome to da forums, concernedparent.

 

First, let me just say that advancement is only one part of scouting, and in many ways a small part. Is your son having fun? Is he learning things, becomin' more independent? Scouting is about a lot more than earning patches.

 

Second, rank advancement is like a video game. Boys play it because it's fun, but they can get stuck at a level for a while. That's OK, as long as they keep blasting away at it. The things yeh see boys get stuck on most frequently these days are the physical fitness and swimming requirements. Maybe because troop are too lax about some of da other "hard" things, or maybe because of just how our modern society is or whatnot. What usually happens is what others describe, eh? The boy gets all the other requirements done, then finishes the one that's "hard" for him and advances rapidly to First Class.

 

Should the SM set the standard that he or she has? As yeh can see here, folks will debate that. For me, I think your SM's interpretation is the one that makes the most sense. But yeh will find SM's who feel sorry for a boy and let him slip by with a fractional pullup, just as yeh will find SMs who let weak swimmers by if they drown in a forward direction for the required distance. That's just judgment and discretion. Nothing your SM is doing is wrong, and it's his/her call.

 

As to the "setting up for failure" bit. For an 11 year old boy, not being able to do a single pullup puts the boy in the bottom 30% for his age group in the country. So unlike the other Tenderfoot fitness requirements where the lad can get credit for improving maybe 1% in his fitness (from 12 pushups to 13), a boy who is weaker in this component may need to improve by 10% or 20% or more before he's able to make the one pullup. That takes a lot more work.

 

Still, it's somethin' that any boy who isn't obese can usually manage in 2-3 months of consistent effort. Yeh can find all sorts of programs like the "20 Pullups" stuff on the internet that provide a progression for training purposes.

 

As boys get older, they naturally add some upper body strength so that by the time a boy is 14, not being able to do a pullup puts him in the bottom 10% of his age group. That makes it an easier task as time goes on. I would expect that all but the truly obese lads to be able to make a pullup with just a bit of dedicated effort as a teen.

 

So generally speakin', I'd encourage your boy to work on it consistently, following one of the programs that's out there. He could get some buddies and challenge each other to do the 100 pushups/20 pullups / 200 situps / 5K run challenge or somesuch.

 

There are lower-grade "pullups" that can be useful for training or alternate requirements for the lads who are really strugglin' with their weight and need a "victory." Sometimes I encourage Scoutmaster's to use the "flexed arm hang" time, which is the alternative offered by the President's Fitness Challenge. Alternately, yeh can try a bar set about 3 feet above the floor and do a pullup sort of like an upside down pushup. With his legs on the floor his weight is partially supported. Some gyms also have these things where you can set weights to do an assisted pullup; in that case maybe he'd have to go from 5 to 6 pullups assisted by a certain amount of counterweight. You might use these as a way of helpin' your son train, or yeh might suggest them to your son's SM as alternatives for the lads who are obese.

 

So again, I wouldn't make a big deal of this if your son isn't. Advancement is just a small part of a healthy scouting experience. If your son is focused on it, I'd help him with some appropriate fitness activities and training. The success and pride you both will feel from that will be so much more positive than if he gets a "bye" because his SM softens his definition of "improvement." But if your troop is dealin' with a lot of overweight boys, yeh might offer some of the alternatives to the SM as a suggestion, or perhaps encourage some more coaching or fitness-directed activities to help the kids improve.

 

Best,

 

Beavah

 

[concernedparent]

Thank you for all of your feedback! we have a committee meeting on Wednesday and I will be addressing this issue, as well as many others. I will have to get my son's book and clearly point that out. -- the before and after.

 

We've lost a few good leaders because of this Scout Master. He is still around because the Charter Organization feels an obligation to him because they helped resurrect the troop and pack years ago (like 25 years ago...) and they want to see if they can work things out -- but I will be presenting and asking if it's in the best interest of the boys.. which clearly it is not.

 

They are moving along with their other requirements and have completed them -- with the final approval of the Scout Master (which makes the ASM's question what they are really there for since they are not "allowed" to sign off on anything on their own...)

 

Yes, unfortunately if things are not resolved then there will have to be some movement. Problem is that no one really wants to bring these things up because this individual is extremely hard to work with-- his way or no way... BUT now we do have a few more individuals in our committee that will back me up and not just tell me that they are so sorry on the way out..

 

Yes, he's a piece of work. We are also constantly trying to clean up the scout room and address their (his and his wife's) hoarding issues.... I recently had to tell them that I was going to purchase some food for the Cub Scout camp and would be using a few of the shelves and if there wasn't enough room then I would be forced to throw out a few of their 50 frozen pizzas that they have in there. (yep - their personal food...)

 

[ScoutNut]

Two things - First, I agree that there is a problem if a SM lets a Scout (your son?) linger for 3 years without earning Tenderfoot. Someone should be helping/mentoring these boys (you did state there were several). If they have stayed active in their Troop for 3 years, with no advancement at all, without packing it in and quitting, or moving Troops, I would say that they are committed to Scouts, and the Troop. It would be nice if the Troop showed some commitment to them as well.

 

However, the second thing - It has been 3 years. You are telling me that after 3 years of exercising and practicing that these boys still can not do 1 pull-up? Sorry, but, unless there is a handicap involved, it is pure hogwash! If my 300lb neighbor exercised even 1X per week, for three years, he would be able to do one pull-up by the end.

 

There has been little to no practicing going on with these boys.

 

These boys are now in 8th, or 9th grade. They should be well past the do it for me Webelos 3 stage. They should be at least somewhat self-motivated by now. If they really want to earn advancement, then THEY need to get off their bums and do something about it. THEY need to talk to their Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, SM, or an Asst SM to see what kind of help they can get. THEY can talk to a coach at school to help them. THEY can sign up for a Park District exercise class.

 

It sounds to me like they are very happy at just the Scout level, not earning any advancements. And that is just fine, if that is what they want. However, if they want to move forward, they need to make a commitment to practice, and exercise their arms, and upper body - regularly.

 

This problem is with BOTH the SM and the boys.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I think yeh want to avoid mixing up issues, concernedparent. So often when people get upset about one thing they feel a need to go and point out all of the mistakes and foibles someone else has made in the last 10 years. That works about as poorly in organizations as it does in marriages.

 

The pizzas are an irrelevant side issue, and the question of whether or not the person is the right one to hold the SM position going forward is one for the committee and CO to take up at recharter time, with careful consideration of the options. Let those be.

 

Right now, you're just raising an advancement question. That's the SM's call, and so it's best addressed to the SM and not to the committee. I appreciate that the fellow may have strong opinions. Honestly, most good SMs do have a bit of the "my way or the highway" approach to parents, because part of their job is to protect some space for the boys. But just because the fellow may be hard to work with doesn't give us the option of being discourteous. In fact, it's in such cases that we give our kids the best example of courtesy.

 

So I think, in all courtesy, you need to approach the SM with this question and some suggestions. You might share some or all of this thread with him. I would do that personally, and privately or with one other parent. I would not think it appropriate to ambush him in a committee meeting without having at least spoken to him personally beforehand, with enough time for him to consider the issues before the committee meeting.

 

Very best,

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[concernedparent]

Ah.. well yes, my son is having fun but in my opinion he's not learning much, as the way they run things they don't have good leadership. The Scout Master's son is an ASM and he is always laying on the bench sleeping... This is most bothersome when I ask who is in charge of them tonight - or who is leading them tonight.. oh - it's CJ... Is that him sleeping on the bench? Yes.. ok.. this isn't the type of thing I want my son to learn...

 

Ok - so I can see that perhaps if they work at it they should be able to do it - and there are things that can be done, said, suggested.. but with this scout master most everything lands on deaf ears. so most everyone just works around him - and does things inspite of him.

 

I personally have not said anything or been involved because I am too busy with the cub scouts - and I have bucked heads with this guy many many times and have gotten no where... My son may be one of the few that could probably do a pull up if he really did work at it as he is a bit scrawny but he is not overweight.. and I admit - it does come back to the parents... I will suggest alternatives and see how that goes.

 

The whole reason this thing came up is because we had a conflict this weekend with the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts (I have one in each) and was told that they were doing a "cook off." Which is not fulfilling any requirements... so my question is this - if the boys are overweight and need to work on this requirement as well as others why is the scoutmaster dictating these types of things? Yes - the cook off was done because HE wanted to do it.

 

Anyway - I'm going off on a tangent now.. But lastly for me - I want my son to advance and earn his badges. Might not be the goal for some but that's what I need him to learn - that he has to have a goal... and do some goal setting..

 

 

[BadenP]

concerned,

Sometimes it just becomes a matter of just how long you want to butt heads, turn people against you, and disrupt the troops program or decide maybe its time to look for another troop that agrees more with your own philosophy. If this was the only troop in the area then maybe you would have reason to stay and fight for your sons, and IMHO you have a valid reason, sometimes it is the more noble thing to just move on to another troop.

[shortridge]

and was told that they were doing a "cook off." Which is not fulfilling any requirements... so my question is this - if the boys are overweight and need to work on this requirement as well as others why is the scoutmaster dictating these types of things? Yes - the cook off was done because HE wanted to do it.

 

One bit of friendly advice - drop the point of view that every activity has to fulfill a requirement or meet an advancement item. This isn't Cubs, where almost every activity can and does fulfill a requirement. Lots of things are just for fun! And honing one's cooking skills - while perhaps not done during a formal "class" - certainly do help a Scout expand his abilities in the outdoors, and perhaps accomplish something for Cooking MB.

 

Second - just because the troop isn't doing a fitness activity doesn't mean your son can't. There's nothing barring him, or any other Scout, from working on this stuff at home, or at school, or with his patrol at a patrol meeting. Don't blame the SM's interest in cooking for a Scout's inability to do a pull-up. That's like the pizzas - a totally separate issue.

 

Other than that, I echo Beavah's good counsel.

 

Edited to add:

 

cp, you wrote in your first post: "If they are not going to be able to advance then why would I feed the troop?"

 

Please take a look at that sentence again, and think about it in light of your Scouting training. You don't "feed the troop." The Cubs coming from your pack choose which troops to join.

 

Similarly, take yourself out of the equation with this troop and try to look at the situation from an outsider's perspective. Take some deep breaths. And talk to the SM first.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[concernedparent]

yep - you're right. I am bringing all of this in..

 

Thanks for the advice of not bringing it to the committee but it's already been placed on the agenda by the secretary as this is how we work.. He's been spoken to multiple times but to no avail.

 

Also - NONE of the boys that have bridged over in the past 3 years have earned their Tenderfoot.

[concernedparent]

Hi Shortridge,

 

Yep - been there, done that..

 

I normally encourage our boys to stick with the troop.. Perhaps that was a poor choice of words.

 

And trust me - I have taken many deep breaths and I do ask for feedback from true outsiders -- to see if I'm seeing things through colored glasses... and sometimes I am... and that's why I ask. I'm not perfect but neither is anyone else. But it is the ability to see this that is the key.

 

Obviously from all of this we all have differing opinions and different goals for our kids. And that just brings me back to reality again -- which is great.

[shortridge]

it's already been placed on the agenda by the secretary as this is how we work.. He's been spoken to multiple times but to no avail.

 

If your troop committee is so rule-ridden and legalistic as to actually have a formal agenda, then it's a simple matter to take it off. Under standard procedure, the agenda must be approved at the beginning of the meeting, right after the call to order and before the approval of the minutes of the last meeting. Simply make a motion that this particular agenda item be stricken, get a second and take a vote to remove it. You started the boulder rolling downhill, and you can stop it.

 

On the flipside - if you're presenting (what sure sounds like) a laundry list of complaints about an SM who has served the troop for a quarter-century, without having first taken the courteous step of speaking to the SM one-on-one, then be prepared for that same SM to become incredibly insulted (as would I), rip off his patch, toss it on the table and walk out.

 

Then be prepared for the committee to turn to you to step in to that role and clean up the mess.