3 yrs in Boy Scouts, Tenderfoot not awarded..

[concernedparent]

Thank you. Scoutmaster has been taken aside multiple times and spoken to.

 

At this point in time there are others who are willing to step into the role.

[packsaddle]

Concernedparent, I hope that you will bring to us your or your Scoutmaster's decision or resolution to this. Thanks for sharing, I hope your sons continue to have fun.

[Thomas54]

 

Back to your original Questions

 

"Do you see a problem with this or am I the only one? "

 

YES BIG time, I think others have responded with an overly pragmatic approach. A group of scouts all still at Tenderfoot after three years is a symptom of a troop with leadership problems.

 

 

"If they are not going to be able to advance then why would I feed the troop? That's like setting them up for failure..."

 

(rant) Although I see this notion a lot I cringe when parents represent their cub scouts as little rewards for the unit. Scouts are a lot of work and new scouts are the biggest work of all. Don't feed a troop; pick a unit that you like.

 

 

That said, I believe you should consider other troops whose program balance better matches your interpretation of scouting. If you move out of this troop your kids will adjust. Scouts are a pretty similar bunch especially within the same council and district. Why stay in a bad unit?

 

Families come by and and shop our troop often enough. Some sign-up, others keep on walking. Reason given, range from our religious aspect in not tune with what they are looking for, or our camping is not what they want. But most often its the advancement aspect. So if you want your scout to advance at a rate that is not in line with the unit's move on.

 

The Crabby scoutmaster will likely bad mouth you in once breath and in the next tell people he is glad to see those slackers are out of his unit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

In the past 4 years or so that I've dealt with our new scout program, we've probably ran a good 65 to 75 boys thru. Our experience is that the majority of boys at that age don't have the upper body strength to do pull ups. Occasionally you get a spider monkey that can rip 30 off, but they are the exception, not the rule. Even after 30 days of honest effort, many of these boys still can't do a single pull up. We use the fractional approach. If the kid just hangs there the first time AND the second time, we have him go back and work more. If we see "improvement" and he can pull himself up more than he did when he just hung there, he showed improvment. We never want to have them "phone it in" and just give advancement away like a cheap toy. That said, they are not going into combat where their patrol member is counting on them to keep them alive either. Holding a boy back for three years is ignorant.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[frank10]

boy I feel for these boys. When I was 16 I could hang from the bar and that was about it. Did 138 sit ups the first night but no pull ups. All the trying in the world wasn't going to make a difference until nature kicked in. By the time I was 18, I could climb up 50 feet of rope with just my hands.

 

Scoutmaster needs to learn about how boys develop.

[ChaiAdventure]

There is more to this issue than simply pull-ups. I find it difficult to believe that not only can NONE of the boys from that age group can do a single pull-up by their current age of 14. Additionally, something is further amiss that NONE of the boys who bridged the two years after have achieved Tenderfoot. I cannot assume if those boys are pull-up challenged as well. If they are, that is one heck of a conincidence.

 

Without observing the situation first-hand, it is impossible to place "blame."

 

As an ASM, I would never allow this to happen. I would consider it a personal failure. I believe that the boys are capable, and I refuse to be proven wrong. As leaders it is our job to allow them to see their potential and act on it. ONE of the Boy Scout principles is advancement and while it should not be an end unto itself, it remains a critical means.

 

My advice is to leave. Go. Don't look back. Go to another unit with no pre-conceived notions and see how things work out.

 

 

[IM_Kathy]

both the troops my son has been involved with used the progress of % closer to a full pull-up... and thankfully for him. He's now 15 and still can't do a pull-up... though I'm hoping now that he's in weights for gym that it might help him.

 

in the years I've been with the boys since webelos fitness and boy scout tenderfoot - it's always the little tiny boys that can do the pull ups. the rest either just don't have the strength to pull their own body weight, still have a little baby fat on them, or have already started maturing and so they weight has gone up and their strength hasn't caught up yet.

 

3 years sounds insane! we've had boys that no matter how much they tried with other requirements (like long jump) they can't beat it, and some can't even get their original mark. When that happens we assume a measuring mistake and write down a new starting distance that he has to work on beating after another month.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I wonder if it's that a lot of scout leaders aren't good at coaching boys on da proper ways to exercise for improvement? After all, that's not in any of the BSA training.

 

I do find it hard to believe that so many boys are "trying as hard as they can" but not managing any improvement on such simple measures. It sounds like a coaching or practice failure. Coaching in not settin' up a proper progression or fun set of activities; practice in the boys not followin' through with the training on a daily or every-other-day basis.

 

There's always a temptation to reduce the requirements because "the boy just can't do it." That seems to me to be short selling the boy. More likely the adult doesn't know how to help the lad properly. Yeh see the same thing happen with swim requirements. Like improving fitness, learning how to swim takes more time than we typically have in an hour a week , and isn't covered outside of NCS. So the temptation by the SM is to let the boy scoot, since actually teachin' how to swim well takes so much effort and coaching skill.

 

That being said, I see the argument in not tryin' to "hold the line" at T-2-1, especially in a FCFY program. Easy for a lad to get discouraged if everyone else is doin' the rapid advancement thing. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Seems like no one is doin' the rapid advancement thing .

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[shortridge]

... aren't good at coaching boys on da proper ways to exercise for improvement? After all, that's not in any of the BSA training.

 

No, but there's plenty of stuff in the Handbook and in the Physical Fitness MB about how Scouts can exercise.

 

There's lots of stuff that's "not in any of the BSA training" that we're expected to either learn about or locate the proper resources for. Training can't cover everything ... but it's a simple matter to call up a high school gym teacher or coach and ask if they can help out for an hour's session.

[SR540Beaver]

FCFY isn't rapid advancement. It is offering a program full of active doing and learning that allows a boy to advance if he avails himself of the opportunities provided. If he doesn't attend, participate, show, explain, do......he doesn't advance.

 

I guess you could say our troop offers a FCFY program since we try to build all the requirements for T-2-1 into a year, but it is rare that any boy actually makes it to 1st class in a year. They usually make 2nd class and have a good number of 1st class done if they are active. Not everyone is going to be at everything in that given year. The kids that pick and choose their campouts based on weather, the kids who play sports, the kids who show up for a meeting when they feel like it, they progress moew slowly. FCFY is not a participation program where they sit in class and the SM stands at the door and signs books because they were sitting in the room.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

[Beavah]

Yeh missed my drift, SR540.

 

If all a boy's friends have pounded out First Class in 11 months but he's still stuck at Tenderfoot because he's afraid of the water, that can be more than a bit discouragin' for the lad. Or if all a boy's friends whipped off Tenderfoot in a month or two but he's stuck at Scout after 8 months because he's building up strength for pull-ups, that can be discouragin'.

 

"Rapid" is relative, of course. In troops that don't do the FCFY thing, the differential isn't as great, eh? If it takes 8 months to make Tenderfoot on average, it's a lot more likely that the lad who needs work on pull-ups is going to have enough time to make some progress and advance along with his mates.

 

B

 

 

[woodsrunner1760]

The dreaded pull up???? I am a Scoutmaster and I interpreted this requirement as improvement meaning if a Scout did 0 he needed to improve to 1 or if he did 1, he then needed to improve to two. I have Scouts who have been Boy Scout Rank for 3+ years because of this very requirement. I had some upset parents about this so I contacted our local Council Advancement Chairman and told him I wanted an answer because it is not stated very well in the Boy Scout Handbook. After two or three emails of him beating around the bush and basically not answering the question I told him if he couldn't answer it I wanted a contact at Nationals that would. He finally confirmed that if a Scout does 0 that he needs to improve to 1 to complete the requirement. I don't understand why this is a problem. Kids have become lazy! I have been Scoutmaster for 8 years now and it is amazing how much lazier they have become in just 8 years. Sorry to say it but kids are obese (and so am I). I have to lose weight every two years to go on the High Adventure Trips I put on. The first time it was 50 lbs. Not so much each time since then because I have chosen to watch my diet some. EXACTLY what some of these kids need to do. And then that goes back to the parents caring enough to see to it that the kids are eating healthy. It is sad when kids won't/can't complete a 10 mile hike. What about the boys afraid of water??? Do you just ignore that? What about the Personal Fitness Merit Badge (Eagle Required) and again more pushups, pullups, and situps. I have to laugh at those of you who scoff us leaders who stick to the rules. YOU ARE CHEATING THESE KIDS WHEN YOU SIGN STUFF OFF WITHOUT PROPER COMPLETION. BOTTOM LINE!!! There are a lot of kids who want to start on the High School Football team but are not much more than bench warmers their entire high school career getting in the game when it is basically over. The opportunity is there for them just the same as the others but they have to work hard to get there. I and two other leaders offered to go to the local gym three evenings a week and work with these Scouts to strengthen them. They all assured me they didn't need/want to because they were working on it at home. HOGWASH!! I know better. I see how lazy some of these kids are on campouts, weekends we cut wood for the Troop Supply, Scout Cabin Cleanup, etc. etc. Please don't be cheating these kids. Before I took over the Troop there were some strong good kids dropping out, I asked them to come back and they said no. I asked why. They told me because "Billy" and "Devin" didn't do their work on the badges (their mom's did) and they rode the Scoutmaster on different things until he caved in and give in. Who got hurt here???? I think I know. I'm not that kind of Scoutmaster. 95% of the time the parents are the problem. No encouraging at home to do stuff, complaining all the time, not wanting to help but "knowing best", etc. etc. Being a Scoutmaster is a pretty THANKLESS job most of the time. My Scouts know that the satisfaction I get is from seeing them truly do their best and KNOWING that they are where they are in their Scouting Career because THAT IS WHERE THEY DESERVE TO BE! BUT,,,,,You have to be consistent across the board or you are no better than the lazies and the complainers. There is way more to Boy Scouts than Advancement and too many parents are TOO BLIND to see this. Advancement is about 10% of Scouting. Quit feeding them kids junk food, kick them off the coach, take away the video games, boot them out the door and let them get some exercise. The results WILL amaze you. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to state my opinion. Thanks Again!!!

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Frankly, I think the Scout has more sense than the Scoutmaster who is being discussed.

 

If a kid was making an effort, I'd find a way to pass him long before three years went by on this issue.

 

However, I had another issue when I was SM:

 

I had a boy who was petrified of the water. He didn't want to come near to the edge of the pool, let alone get in it.

 

He therefore couldn't pass the Second Class (or whatever it was) swimming requirement and he was delayed, perhaps three years, because of it. (This was thirty years ago).

 

I remember the last Troop swim I did as SM --- this boy popped up beside me in the pool with a big grin, swimming like a fish. He's finally decided he was going to learn to swim and he did. I was very proud of that young man's accomplishment.

 

Frankly, I'd ask for a BOR for these boys and see if the Troop Committee backs up the SM on this issue. If they do, I'd appeal the decision to the District Advancement Committee and see what they say.

 

I respect woodsrunner for getting an opinion from the Council Advancement Chair, although I'm rather surprised at the answer he got. Your own district or council advancement chair might have a different view.

 

In addition to that, I'd be encouraging the parents to work with their boys every day on practicing the pull up. They should be making their best effort on this in any case.

 

Are these boys notably overweight?

[concernedparent]

Hello! It's been 2 years since my 1st posting and my son still hasn't been able to do a full pull up. He practices almost every day and he's not overweight but I do have to say that he definitely has to build up his muscles... But he is definitely making progress. (he's pretty scrawny and is slow to mature physically)..

 

Personally I think that there's a lot to be said for your story on the scout who finally decided to swim.. and he did! That's one of the things that we were told - that when they decide they want to do it they will... and I agree with that.. however, on the flip side.. These boys are the ones that would step up to be the Pack's Den Chiefs.. Our pack has not had a Den Chief in over 3 years.. and the ones we did get were only able to attend about 4 events total..

 

Unfortunately there is no Troop Committee. Rather we have a Joint Unit Committee that consists of leaders from all units that the CO sponsors. We tried to break off into separate committees but the CC would not have it... and the CC will not stand up to the SM.

 

Yes, our council said that it says "show improvement" - and not do 1.. but then they also said that it's up to the interpretation of the SM..

 

Thanks for all your input!

[Horizon]

3 years with no rank advancement by an entire group of boys who bridged over is a sign that one of the methods is not being used IMHO. Then again, I am not there to see it all.

 

1) To get to do the first pull up - you can exercise in a variety of ways. Bent arm hang is one of the best, followed by pushups daily.

 

2) I have the entire Troop do the Tenderfoot test together every year after bridging. We have all of the new Scouts PLUS everyone else do the first test and the Scribe records it. Then we have all everyone do it again a month later. This makes it a more Troop event, some cheering, and the Patrols are working together. Yes, I also participate as well - I think that it is important for Scout Leaders to set the example that physical fitness is important no matter what the age.