Eagle Mills

[JMBadger]

You never frightened me away at all.

 

And while you chose to see my comments as "wiggling my antennae and attacking," I should interpret your responses as "all in good humor"?

 

I am not helping my son do the work. He does the work, he gets the credit. Saying I shouldn't remind him the work needs doing is like saying a student cheated on his essay because his parents reminded him it was coming due.

 

I went to USScouts.org and got the worksheets for Family Life. On the page with the chore chart it says: "Clarification from National: These 90 days do not have to be in a row but can be from any time while a Boy Scout."

 

In all advancement and badges, the boy must do the requirements as written, no more, no less. If the requirement says the boy must do work, he does it alone. If it says "with someone's guidance," I guide as I can without actually doing any of the real work. If it says, "with a parent's help," I can pitch in.

 

If I ever find a requirement that says "without anyone reminding him," then I'll keep my mouth shut and let him forget (if that is what happens), but until then I will assume I can remind him that things need to be done. I'll assume I'm also allowed to drive him to meetings instead of forcing him to figure out a way to get there "without any help from me," and that I can buy him a new sleeping bag to replace the one the cat peed in. Or perhaps I should withhold that help also?

 

A lot of you out there are a great source of information, and I'll continue to ask questions and willingly listen to your answers. And if you say something I disagree with and can back it up with documentation, I'll happily accept that I'm mistaken. But I've heard too many scoutmasters arguing very forcefully that an incomplete merit badge must be completed in six months or it has to be restarted to take anyone's word if it sounds amiss.

 

Now I have a weekend hiking trip to leave for. Yes, I'm going to remind the boys they should have compasses and first-aid kits and anything else I think they may forget.

[gcnphkr]

You have to ask what you are wanting to accomplish with your son? If you are just wanting him to receive credit for the merit badge then remind him all you want. If you are wanting to get the chores done on a daily basis and the only way for that to happen is to remind him everyday then remind him everyday.

 

If you are wanting him to take responsibility for his actions and learn to do things without someone constantly watching over him to make sure that he does what he is supposed to do then you might allow him to take as long as needed for him to record his chores on his own. I'm not saying that your should never remind him, but simply asking him how he is doing every couple of weeks would likely be more productive in the long run. It all depends on what you are hoping to accomplish.

 

For that matter it does not require that he log things every day, just log when he did what he did do. He could sit down at the end of the week and log, "I didn't do my chores". That might make for an interesting conversation with the counselor, especially if that was what he did most weeks. But that fulfills the letter if not the spirit of the requirement.

 

When in doubt on the interpretation of a requirement it is the Scoutmaster's or Merit Badge Counselor's call. They are the one that says, "Yes, Billy Bob did this".

[Beavah]

Yah, JMBadger, moose's comment about antennae was a reference to packsaddle's comment about cockroaches. Apparently packsaddle needs an exterminator. And we all know packsaddle is a bit odd. One wonders what he's goin' to do with those island-sized bugs when he moves. So yah, take is as the joke it was intended to be.

 

I think, like jet, that you're still missing the point of the Scouting program. It's not to put checks in a book, eh? It's to develop character. The point of Family Life MB is to help young men grow into a lived recognition of their role in supporting the family. Everybody has their own style of parenting, of course. Mine was to expect 11 year olds to do their share without reminders or nagging. In scouts or in parenting, yeh get what you expect.

 

Your posts are a great contribution to da thread on Badge Mills, I'll admit. To my mind, they epitomize the way a Badge Mill works, eh? It reads da requirements in such a narrow way as to make 'em not reflect real learning or development by the youth. Just do da task once, in da easiest way yeh can make the language work. And then as an adult, yeh do all the support work and take all da responsibility away from the kids.

 

Why in the world would yeh remind the boys to bring compasses? If they really passed da Tenderfoot "What to bring on a campout" requirement, they should know to bring a compass. That's what passing the requirement means. If they don't bring a compass, that's their problem. They can navigate without it... unless yeh did da First Class requirement for 'em too.

 

Why in the world would yeh remind 'em to bring a first aid kit? They put their first aid kits together for Second Class, eh? They know how to do it now. If they don't have a first aid kit, they know how to improvise first aid with what they've got. Right? Unless yeh decided that actually knowin' how to do first aid while camping was adding to the requirements.

 

Besides, it's their Patrol Leader who should be doin' the reminding if any is to be done.

 

Feedback is a gift, eh? We don't mean to be harsh, we mean to be helpful. Yeh should know that what you are describing is what most of us would consider subtracting from the requirements, and not allowed. An "Eagle Mill" approach. Da BSA police are not going to come "bust" you, the lads will still earn Eagle just as fast as yeh can push 'em and carry 'em through it. But your son and da other boys really won't get much out of da program besides the cloth patches.

 

Personally, I think that's a shame. Yeh would be amazed what a great experience Scouting can be when it's done a bit more traditionally.

 

Kudu's question is a good one here. Would you trust your scouts to camp on their own, at least a quarter mile away from da adults? Would you trust your son to do an extended home stay with an international scouting family without you, demonstratin' that he's a fine American scout who does his chores for his hosts reliably?

 

If not, then maybe yeh should think about what your program could do differently so that the patrol really can hike and camp on its own, and your son really could be a good member of a host family with high expectations.

 

Have fun on your campout this weekend. Autumn is such a great time to be in the woods with the boys.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

Sorry that you took offense.. If you read the part in the post before you wiggled your "antenne at me" I stated the following..

 

"Packsaddle - I am unsure if the cockroach is refering to you or JMBadger.. (If it was me, I am still in gear and raiding your pantry, right now..) I think though it might be JM as I think I did squash him, he isn't running around here any more."

 

I also put myself and or packsaddle in the role of cockroach, but then just deduced it must be you because you were missing, and it was supposed to be a extinct one. I was trying to humor you into coming back.

 

Anyway you state the following..

 

"In all advancement and badges, the boy must do the requirements as written, no more, no less. If the requirement says the boy must do work, he does it alone. If it says "with someone's guidance," I guide as I can without actually doing any of the real work. If it says, "with a parent's help," I can pitch in."

 

All that is very true.. Now tell me where in the tracking and charting does it state "with a parent's help" ? Then tell me how your following comment doesnt ring of helping if not making him do something..

 

"He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly)"

 

Reminding and dragging an unwilling child around to do the requirement, is very much not a boy doing something on his own.. Which is as Beavah stated, subtracting from the requirement.

OK.. Now lets take this statement of yours..

 

Now I have a weekend hiking trip to leave for. Yes, I'm going to remind the boys they should have compasses and first-aid kits and anything else I think they may forget.

Ok, this is not for sign-off on a requirement, so do what you want. But compare it to how I approached the same thing with my son.

 

When he started BS I sat with him and the BS handbook at the computer and I typed in what he pulled off the packing list. Then he added anything else he wanted to bring. The first time he packed I printed off the list, let him pack and checked it over. The second time he packed HE printed off the list, he packed and I checked it over. After that he printed, packed and I never got involved again. The list had the compass, first aid kit, rain jacket, pocket knife etc..

 

Now what did I teach my son? What did you teach your son? As you stated you came to this forum to learn. So you can take our advice, or continue to push your son through jumping hoops. He can get Eagle and learn nothing from it, but it will look nice on the college app. That is sad for the missed opportunity to teach your son to be self-relient, confident, and have character.

 

Most of us parents do not have the understanding of what "good" scouting is all about, we have to learn what the real purpose of scouting is about. My "Ahh-Ha" moment came when my son on his 2nd week with the troop went to an Eagle project. My son got out of the car and picked up what he could carry of the Tools he brought. He started up the hill, I picked up what he could not carry and followed him up. When the SM saw us, he turned to my son and asked.. "Where is your shovel?" I had his shovel so I waved it.. My son knew better.. "It's in the car, sir" "Go get it" my son turned to go, and I am totally confused.. The SM then stopped him and said "Your mother has your shovel. Explain to her that she can not carry your things for you.".. I thought I was helping. It wasn't that my son carried nothing and I carried it all. It seemed perfectly natural to pick up and carry what he could not. But I learned that day.

 

Maybe this thread is not your "Ahh-Ha" moment. But, I hope someday you will have it for the sake of your son's personal growth.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I guess I do 'own' that 'odd' comment. My students sure believe it. My children, similar conclusion long ago. And I'm fairly certain I earned it on my own...with no help from my mommy and daddy.

Also I feel the need to defend the island. Insects there aren't as bad as in the South, maybe due to help by the amazing population of house geckos. But the roaches, while different, are nowhere near as bad as in the very old building I'm in on campus here in the South. And if you smash one that's sitting on the powerstrip, the bloatware doesn't like it much.

 

[packsaddle]

New Development and a possible test of some of these ideas...

I just received my new advising list and a couple of superannuated scouts from the troop I serve are on it. Their parents were similar to JMHawkins in their involvement (if his description serves well), so I'm going to see how 'needy' or 'prepared' these guys might be. I'll bookmark this thread so I can update with news.

[gcnphkr]

Beavah,

 

Check your irony meter, if you think I was advocatin what you seen to think then it needs to be recalibrated.

 

There are two extremes in this thread. One that puts the threshold fire an Eagle sadly low, the other is just as wrong in making it unreasonably high. Both are just as wrong and both miss the point of scouting.

 

As for my son. There are a couple of people here that know him. Not only would he do fine with an international family. A he is a pretty good stand in for a Norman Rockwell Eagle.(This message has been edited by Jet526)

[moosetracker]

JM: Your state the following:

If I ever find a requirement that says "without anyone reminding him," then I'll keep my mouth shut and let him forget (if that is what happens), but until then I will assume I can remind him that things

This is from the merit badge pamphlet, page 17 Share Roles & Responsibilities (this is the starting page on what the 90 day chart is all about.)

It is also a good way for you to prepare for the future and the responsibilities that will be required of you as an adult. A good way to show your responsibility and commitment to your family is to do your chores without complaining or being asked.. When you carry out these responsibilities, you are letting the family members know that you love them and that they can depend on you.

Page 18 19 list chore example, 20 finishes up chore examples then states the following.

Use the sample home duties chart to create your own. Most of these tasks need to be done every day. At the foot of the chart it states. (Denotes a chore that should be done as needed or at least once a week.)

I see where you got your wording. But, it was not there 10 years ago when my son did his. The merit badge book was and the merit badge book trumpets the on-line work sheet in my mind because it is stated in any info on how to do a merit badge that the scout should read the MB book. But does not state he needs to go on line to get a worksheet. Few even know of the on-line sources.

 

So from now on if a scout can come to me with a chart covering 90 days of chores that the majority he did on a daily basis and a few at least once a week, that covers a 2 or 5 year period from when he started boy Scouts, I will sign off his chart. (I am not sure how he will manage doing thing daily or weekly for 90 days over several years, but if he does... I sure hope one of those chores is not to feed the cat or dog, as they may go through a dozen or more animals before they complete the chart. Sure will show their family they love them and they can depend on them."

 

But, now you need to concede that since it is in writing, in the family life merit badge books your son has read (I am sure).. Your son has not been doing his 90 days of charting without being asked or without his complaining..Remember you stated did the work (grudgingly) , so I would suspect doing the work grudgingly while you drag him over to do it can be seen as complaining... But dont worry, now when he forgets or chooses today is not a day I want to do my chores.. He may finish before his 18th birthday doing his 90 days of daily / weekly chores.

 

I will be nice though and give you a hint of what you can do to help. Let him put the chart up where it is in his face in a noticeable spot so the chart reminds him. My son had it on the main door we use to go outside, then when it was there long enough that he no longer noticed it he moved it to a bathroom mirror (luckily not the one my husband used to shave in.) Maybe then he might finish before his 16th birthday. Now with computers this might be changed to a computer reminder if he has his own computer area that he goes into daily.

 

Grant it, this isn't quite what an adult would need to do to remember to cook dinner every night so their family can eat, or to wash the dishes so they don't get packsaddle's cockroaches. But, there is nothing in the MB Book that states the scout can't find a system that works to remind himself. He though still need to have the maturity to go and do those chores on his own without complaint, once he is reminded of it. Once he starts doing this on his own, you are most welcome to praise and compliment him on the great job he is doing, to reinforce his feeling good about it. Rather then drag and nag and make chores a negative.. Praise and compliment and help make him feel good about the chores he is doing.

[moosetracker]

Ooops.. Should have previewed last post before sending. sorry about not closing the italics.

 

So I have spent 1/2 hour pondering how to interpret dependably doing chores on a daily/weekly basis, but not having to do the 90 days consecutively..

 

And I have come up with my interpretation (which JM, or anyone else can jump all over..)

 

Actually the spelling out in the MB book of Most tasks need to be done daily was not spelled out in the older MB book. I would just show scouts the example chart and tell them from the example your chores need to be at least once a week. Most scouts chose most chores that were not daily.

 

So JM forced me to re-read the book, and really charting just got harder because most chores must be daily.

 

I remembered one scout that was going away on vaca for a week, and he asked me how he could continue his 90 charting while away from home. I consoled that the MB requirement, did not state the chores had to remain the same. So I had him choose other chores for that week.

 

This option would get around that problem quite nicely as they are not required to do their chores while away from home. Never had it, but this would solve breaking the consecutive if the scout landed in the hospital, or now with daily chores got sick to the point they were in bed for a day or two.

 

These are ways that yes I would say they took the charting of chores seriously, did it on a daily basis, they showed their family they could be depended on to do the chores, and they carried it out for 90 days even if there were explainable lapses where the chart had to be extended to 97 or 104 days or whatever.

 

But, JM the future scouts I counsel will have you to thank for the fact they can no longer get by with choosing 5 chores that are not daily. One or two OK, but no more then that..

[Stosh]

Whew! I'm not allergic to cats, but there's still a lot of fur in the air for me.

 

As a SM, I don't do MB's very often for the boys, I like them to get a variety of different MB counselors to give them a broader experience dealing with different adults. Because of this I offer very little to the boys except listen carefully to the MB counselor's directions and expectations, they are all different. Some do it exactly as required others give a little slush one way or the other. As long as I'm not doing the MB, I take a back seat on it. All I look for is a signature from the counselor.

 

With that being said, when I do instruct a MB, I lay out the expectations for the boys on the initial visit. If there's a bit of wiggle room in the interpretation of a requirement, I explain how I interpret it. If the boys decide I'm too harsh they can then choose to seek out a different MB counselor and no feelings are hurt.

 

The very first step I do is decide for myself what is it that I want to convey to the boys so that they have a decent take away when they have completed the MB. I haven't done the Family MB, but if there's a 90 day doing chores, I expect them to actually do the work and do it without being reminded and do it cheerfully. I make sure in the instructions I give that doing chores is what it takes to be part of something bigger than oneself and if constant hounding by a parent is required, then they really aren't trying to be part of anything. I can put anything I want into the instructions of the MB, but when all is said and done, I stick with the wording of the requirement. However they cut corners, or go the extra effort is entirely up to them.

 

There are some boys who will take the program to heart and do a nice job on it, there are others who will only go through the motions and walk away with a patch. It's really not up to me to judge that result as worthwhile or not. Like any other program a person does, their take away at the end is reflective of their efforts along the way. I figure that if a boy only goes through the motions gets a patch and marks off another MB for Eagle just so he can get the rank and quit, I'm thinking he's missing out on a lot of what scouting has to offer. That's their choice.

 

Stosh

[JMBadger]

Just got back beautiful weather, good hiking, even got in a quick prayer service at the little chapel they have.

 

Beavah Why would I tell them to bring a compass? At what point did I say that they were all tenderfoot or above? You chide me for them being reminded at all, then suggest it is the patrol leader's job to remind them. I do appreciate that you all believe you are being helpful, and I accept your criticism in that spirit. But our troop isn't an eagle mill or badge mill. The youngest Eagle we've had for years will almost be 17 before he gets it next spring, and he's the Scout Master's son.

 

Moosetracker I'm not recording anything for him. He is doing the recording. Apparently my definition of "helping" and everyone else's is different.

 

Packsaddle JMBadger, JMHawkins...not sure if you meant me or the one who started this thread. Maybe both.

 

I am not a MB counselor for this badge. He started it at I what I consider a REAL badge mill MBU, merit badge university. While I am being a complete ass about MB requirements, if it says the boy has to explain something, I expect him to explain it to me. I don't think I'm supposed to tell him the information, then mark it complete because I covered it in a lecture. But MBU will offer several badges, then instruct the boys to pick 3 and when they get there (or very shortly before) they'll be told which one they are doing. The boys can't possibly be adequately prepared for all 3, so they go prepared for none. That's how my son got stuck with this particular badge.

 

So, yes, I will continue to ask him if he's done his chores and if he's recorded them. And I'll continue to drive him to camp-outs, and I'll happily take my turn assisting with the chaperoning, providing 2-deep leadership. And if the day comes that he is no longer having fun I'll pull him out of it. But until then I'll do as I think is best.

[packsaddle]

"Packsaddle JMBadger, JMHawkins...not sure if you meant me or the one who started this thread. Maybe both."

 

Now you're confusing me. I'm pretty sure that when I wrote "JMHawkins" I meant JMHawkins, in the original post. You guys aren't alter egos of the same person are you?

 

I have had identical twins in my courses from time to time. It's not easy, I might add.

[JMBadger]

I don't have time for an alter ego.

 

No, I glossed over the name and thought you were talking about me, but then wondered how someone could make that type of error, so I had to go find the JMHawkins and reread his post.

 

So seriously, oops my bad.

[moosetracker]

Well Your comment

I will continue to ask him if he's done his chores and if he's recorded them

 

Is more subdued in helping then your original comment of..

He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly)"

 

At least it is not daily.. while he is dragged protesting through it.

 

But still doesn't fit the writing in the Family life MB pamplet.

is to do your chores without complaining or being asked

 

No one is asking you to make the scout figure out how to get to the scout meeting on his own. Although at 17 he may just do that, it is not a requirement of BSA, and although you may need

to teach him to drive and have safe driving habits, you normally do not have to drag a boy into to the car and force him to drive.. The second they are of age they will be at the wheel honking for you to come out of the house and take them out to practice.

 

There may be hope for you yet though.. Little by little we may convert you to allowing your son to do for himself. We made a small dent.

 

 

[JMHawkins]

I just received my new advising list and a couple of superannuated scouts from the troop I serve are on it. Their parents were similar to JMHawkins in their involvement (if his description serves well), so I'm going to see how 'needy' or 'prepared' these guys might be. I'll bookmark this thread so I can update with news.

 

Ha, now I'm confused (but I admit I got sorta lost around the cockroach discussion). What description was that? Parents who focus on their kid's resume instead of his character?