Eagle Mills

[JMHawkins]

Doh! I completely misread the requirement. I thought it said 21 additional MB, but it's 21 total. Thank you, glad I made that mistake here and got set straight. Education is what you get when you read the instructions carefully and experience is what you get when you don't. Well, now I'm more experienced.

 

For what it's worth, the BSA website says the average age at which Eagle is awarded is 17.3. So, while there are middle school Eagles running (flying?) around, they aren't the majority. I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

 

[gcnphkr]

That sounds about right. In our troop the median age is 17.5. A little less than 12% earned their Eagle before 15, 25% had their BOR after they turned 18.

[packsaddle]

I always thought that 'deathbeds' had to do with last rites or last heartbeats or something, followed by horrible, agonizing deaths. Hopefully, most of those Eagles 17.3 years and greater don't die momentarily after receiving the award.

Let's see, if the minimum age for earning Eagle is, say, 12 and the maximum cutoff is 18, and if the mean age is 17.3...wow. An even distribution between 12 and 18 would produce a mean of 15 or so. The actual distribution must be HEAVILY skewed toward age 18 to produce that result. I would like to see the actual data to see how they calculated it. But age 17.3, if that is the mean, occurring so close to the limit at age 18, then a 'deathbed' Eagle could be anyone who earns it after that age, probably more than 50% of all Eagles. Which means....

 

"Eagle Mills" must be churning out 'deathbed' Eagles! AHAH!!!!

or else this is all just a lot of nonsense

 

IMHO this is actually the effect of a hard deadline confronting youthful procrastination. I guess those 'deathbed' types are the worst procrastinators of all.

But there's that 'dead' thing again isn't it...'dead'line. H'mmm, we are just so fascinated with mortality.

[nolesrule]

Hard deadlines are great motivators, aren't they?

 

Heck, I was one of those gung-ho get it done scouts who was life by 12.5 was ABP by about 13.5, all self-motivated. Yet my Eagle BOR was 3 months, 5 days before my 18th birthday.

 

I spent most of the 4 years in between (my high school years) doing non-advancement stuff (OA, JLT, camp staff), concentrating on earning the IB diploma in high school, serving as a VP for 2 terms in my synagogue youth group chapter, as well as chairing some committees on the sub-regional and regional levels of the youth group and spending 6 weeks in Israel (skipped the troop's HA trip to the AT for that).

 

Somewhere in there I did my project.

[JMBadger]

A friend of mine is am ASM and he told me his troop actually holds the Star and Life scouts back until they feel the boys are "emotionally mature enough." I don't know what he meant by that, but was so shocked I didn't know what to say. I've worked almost exclusively with Cubs, but I believe in immediate recognition when a boy earns something.

 

Now my 11-year-old is working on Family Life, 90 days of chores and keeping track of them. He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly) so he earns the badge. Will he continue to do those chores after the badge is earned? Unlikely. Should the badge be revoked because he no longer does those chores? Of course not.

 

When I taught Bears and Webelos to tie their knots, we went over them again and again. When they could tie the knots 3 times without any assistance or "hints" I signed them off. They earned my signature that day. Were they required to tie those knots again every month to keep my signature? Of course not. Some of the boys can still tie them and they credit me for teaching them. Some boys failed the first time I asked them to show they still knew them. I didn't scratch my signature from their book or rip the AOL patch from their shirts.

 

Some troops don't have much of an outdoor program, and even those who do don't necessarily need to use a bowline every time. In my job I work on a small tugboat in a harbor. I was required to be able to tie a square knot. With the exception of that demonstration, I have not needed to tie a square knot for my job in over 20 years! If a boy isn't interested in a skill and doesn't need to remember it, he won't.

 

I have not yet been shown the requirement where a boy must demonstrate that he has retained everything he ever learned in Scouting.

[moosetracker]

JMBadger - "He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly) so he earns the badge"..

 

Right there you have stated why a boy can get Eagle young. He is not doing the 3 months of tracking and charting on his own. His parent is. He is too young to be self-motivated to do it on his own.

 

When my son took it, he would forget we would wait a week to see if he remembered, and at that point let him know he did not fullfill his 3 months of following a routine. He restarted that 3 month chart over literally 3 times before he followed it by himself. When the other 2 MB with 3 month charting came around, he followed them from beginning to end in one shot, with no motivation from his parents.

 

Sorry JM.. But your son may get his MB signed off, but he was not self motivated to do it himself. He was guided by a parent wanting to see him get rank advancement before he was mature enough to do so.

[JMBadger]

I just reread the requirements and it doesn't say he must complete the recording without being reminded. We're not allowed to add to or subtract from the requirements.

 

And the 90 days do not have to be consecutive, so if you made your son start over you were adding requirements that aren't there.

[evmori]

Right there you have stated why a boy can get Eagle young.

 

While I am not a fan of really young Eagle Scouts, making a generalization like this is not accurate. There are boys out there who have the maturity and are able to be earn Eagle by the time they are 14 years old. They are not the norm, though.

[moosetracker]

Since we want to play that game, show me where it states a parent can remind you to keep track of your tracking and charting.???

 

We're not allowed to add to or subtract from the requirements.

 

The whole program is meant to make the boy self sufficient. In what requirement does it ever state.. Serve as cook (but don't let your parents help you.) .. Do this type of lashing (but on your do it on your own.)..

 

Why can't we run the whole program with the parents helping the boys to get their requirements done.. You can help him pack his gear, pitch his tent, cook for the patrol etc.. etc.. etc.. because no where in the manual does it state "Without the help of your parents".. But it never states to do everything with the help of your parents..

 

How is your son learning independence and confidence? That is the whole point of scouting, not to earn merit badges and ranks.. TO LEARN TO DO FOR YOURSELF..

 

I hope your son never gets lost in the woods without you.

[Beavah]

Yah, sorry JMBadger, I'm with moosetracker. He's not addin' to the requirements, you're subtracting from them. That's what happens in Badge Mills.

 

Your lad is only 11, eh? Just recently crossed into Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts is a different program than Cubs. I'd recommend yeh take a step back, give him a year to develop on his own working with da other adults in the troop, and use that year to get trained in Boy Scouting and adjust your thinkin' to the new way of doing things. Both you and your son will benefit, eh? You'll both get a lot more out of da program.

 

Here's sorta my thinking:

 

Now my 11-year-old is working on Family Life, 90 days of chores and keeping track of them. He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly) so he earns the badge. Will he continue to do those chores after the badge is earned? Unlikely.

 

The point of any Boy Scout badge is to learn the stuff, develop the habits, build character and citizenship. In the words of the manuals, A Boy Scout Badge is a recognition for what a boy is ABLE TO DO, not a reward for what he has done under protest.

 

I think yeh blew it on the Family Life badge by dragging your son along to complete the tasks. That wasn't the point. Your son should have done the work on his own, developing the character to continue to contribute to his family on his own after the badge was complete.

 

A lad who has their parent drag them around doing their "position of responsibility" for them or their Eagle project for them or setting up their tent for them is also subtracting from da requirements. That's an Eagle Mill, if the troop allows it to happen. That's why many troops won't have a parent counsel badges for their own son unless there are no other counselors available.

 

When I taught Bears and Webelos to tie their knots, we went over them again and again. When they could tie the knots 3 times without any assistance or "hints" I signed them off. They earned my signature that day.

 

Yah, OK for Cub Scouts, but not OK for Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts we EDGE, eh? That means after yeh explain and demonstrate, the boy has to have a lot of opportunity for you to Guide and then to be Enabled to do it on his own, in the field. Tying loads onto the tops of cars, settin' up his patrol dining fly, lashing gadgets, etc. Only when he's "got it down" after a lot of practice is he then tested, and by that point he isn't goin' to forget it the next week. In fact the "test" may be "go set up the dining fly usin' the right knots".

 

And the 90 days do not have to be consecutive, so if you made your son start over you were adding requirements that aren't there.

 

Yah, that kind of sea lawyer interpretation is just fine if you're an attorney tryin' to manipulate things to get your client off on a technicality, but it has no business in raising kids unless yeh want them to someday need a lawyer to get 'em off on a technicality.

 

We want kids to learn character, not how to manipulate the system. So da requirements must always be read in that light. How does working on this badge or award help the lad learn character and citizenship? Or, in da words of the BSA's Rules, administration of advancement must harmonize with the aims and purposes of the organization.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ADCmohegan]

Yes, go and suffer you little Cretan.

 

Only the strong shall survive.

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

Thanks Beavah,

 

I missed the part of I added to my sons requirements, due to not being consecutive.

 

I myself teach family life. I have had scouts try that or the attempt to find a chore they only have to do once during the 3 months and tell me "It doesn't state how many times you need to chart the task.".. With both I flip to page in the merit badge book that shows an example of how to set up your charting. The chart example does not show a week in January and a few day in Feb.. etc.. And the chores may not need to be daily, but they at least are done once a week..

 

Don't try to beat the system. All you do is teach your son how to cheat. And that is not the type of charactor that BSA is trying to develop in him.

 

Again I am sorry, if it sounds harsh.. Especially if you are a new cross-over parent. Many new cross-overs have to have time to learn what the whole game of scouting is about. It takes a while to realize it is different. But it is the greatest game going if you want to raise a son that you are proud of.

[packsaddle]

I was under the impression that parents had the ultimate authority and responsibility for their children. I must have been mistaken.

All that nagging: piano practice, band practice, memorize the catechism, school homework, eat your vegetables, do your chores....but NOT keeping the records for a MB, or practicing lashings, or, or...if the troop leader says not to. I was soooo wrong.

[JMHawkins]

Yah, that kind of sea lawyer interpretation is just fine if you're an attorney tryin' to manipulate things to get your client off on a technicality, but it has no business in raising kids unless yeh want them to someday need a lawyer to get 'em off on a technicality.

 

Beavah, I'm going to print that out and frame it. Though I'm not so sure it's really okay for an attorney trying to manipulate things either... but that's another subject entirely.

 

Yah, OK for Cub Scouts, but not OK for Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts we EDGE, eh? That means after yeh explain and demonstrate, the boy has to have a lot of opportunity for you to Guide and then to be Enabled to do it on his own, in the field. Tying loads onto the tops of cars, settin' up his patrol dining fly, lashing gadgets, etc. Only when he's "got it down" after a lot of practice is he then tested, and by that point he isn't goin' to forget it the next week. In fact the "test" may be "go set up the dining fly usin' the right knots".

 

My son is a Bear and we're doing Achievment 22 (the knots one). Considering that the boy was still having trouble tying his shoes, I thought it was going to be a long, long road. I figured I would show him a new knot each night, and have him practice all the previous ones first. Started late last week, and we've gone through all the knots now. To my surprise, he picked them up really fast (it took me forever to learn a bowline, he got it the first time). Anyway, I haven't signed off quite yet. I told him he should keep practicing them. We're going to work on some other achievements, and probably this weekend I'll ask him to tie the five knots and sign off if he's able to do it. I suspect he will be. But I'll know he's learned the knots.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Packsaddle - As a parent you can do what you want as in do your homework, or eat your veggies.. But even with this you should find ways to ween him off of "YOU" being a necessary element, by finding ways for him to take responsibility for tracking and doing his homework, such as keeping a date planner with his homework assignment & referencing it, and helping him find ways to enjoy certain veggies by trying new ones or old ones in diff. recipies. Otherwise when he goes off to college pack your bags because he will flunk college & get sick without you there to say.. "Do your homework" "Eat your veggies".. (No worries you can live under his dorm room bed.)

 

With scouting you can "practice" scout skills like ax saftey or First aide.. But must back off until he can do it on his own.. If he can not do a scout skill without mamma or daddy at his side, then he can not do a scout skill..

 

With Family Life, learning how to chart and track and get into a good habit of chores you can also help by letting him get use to doing chores around the house, before starting the badge.

 

But to get signed off for doing a requirement for a MB it should be on his own, unless stated, with your MBC, or with your family, or with a buddy.. Like in family Life there is this requirement..

 

"5.Plan and carry out a project that involves the participation of your family ..."

 

It states it is to be carried out with your families participation. This is unlike the following.

 

"3.Prepare a list of your regular home duties or chores (at least five) and do them for 90 days. Keep a record of how often you do each of them."

 

I see only "your" and "you".. Nothing about "with your family", or "with a parent"

 

That means the scout does the requirement on his own.. No help from Mom, Dad, SM, or MBC (or anyone else you think you found a loophole to add).

 

Now the parent (and scout) can do whatever they choose behind the back of the MBC and have the scout go to the MBC and take all the credit for doing it correctly and get signed off.. The MBC will never know, unless they think to ask if the scout did it without any help and the scout is honest.. But really what are you teaching your son?

 

Helping your child "PRACTICE" skills is all well and good. Getting them going on good habits is also a parents job.. But it should be in a way that slowly lets him become self sufficient.. With or without scouts in your life.