When do you take the scouts word?

[evmori]

EDGE is nothing more than basic teaching principles the BSA has been using for decades with a fancy new acronym.

 

The OP was complaining that their SM - "insists that our younger scouts be seen teaching someone how to tie a square knot".

 

While others might do this differently, Shrubber's SM is NOT WRONG in how he is handling this requirement.

 

And the OP has a valid complaint. The requirement states "teach someone" not "teach someone only when the SM is available to watch" Shrubber's SM is adding to the requirements by requiring a Scout to do this teaching so they can watch.

[Venividi]

ev,

That is quite a stretch. BSA has a big enough tent (pun intended) to accomodate how you choose to implement the requirement and how shrubber's SM has implemented it. Turning this into a p***ing match accomplishes nothing.

[moosetracker]

OK.. coming into this discussion a little late, but very interesting.

Shrubber, sounds like you will not back down no matter what is said.. But, I will need to side with Beavah on this one, Although I think Beavah trying to come up with a test for Saving money was not good (sorry Beavah)..

 

My interpretation to Shubbers posting of BSA policy in defense of his viewpoint that the EDGE requirement is something that should not be tested does not agree with Shrubber nor Beavah. And explains what can be tested by the SM & maybe what should not.

 

Quoted from: Advancement Policies #33088, pages 24)

"A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and ON HIS OWN"

"A Scout MAY be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member

No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement.

 

1)

A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and ON HIS OWN

 

Interpretation: This does not mean he can do something outside of the troop, decide he is successful, and come to a troop meeting to expect it sign off. If it were, we should just stay with the cub scout method of having parents sign-off in the books. What it means is that he can practice on his advancement outside the troop.. ex. He could practice the safety rules of the ax outside the scout meetings (with parents guidance since until he learned it he shouldnt be let loose with an ax) , he could practice first aide requirements outside the troop with others. Boys should be encouraged to work on advancement on his own time ON HIS OWN and not just in a troop meeting, this will allow him to advance faster. That means with the EDGE requirement, by all means work on his advancement outside of the troop with a friend, or the store clerk..

 

2 )

A Scout MAY be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member

 

Interpretation: Here is where I interpret different then Beavah.. May doesnt mean refers to the many different people who could be designated to sign-off.. It means he may be tested or he may not.. Which doesnt mean he may not be tested if Shubber decrees he doesnt need to be, that is the decision of the SM if he needs to be tested or not. So in the case of the original EDGE requirement your SM decides it is something which should be tested, and he can do so without adding to the requirement, because having him teach in front of him is not adding to the requirement, it is testing him on the requirement. But the SM may decide not to test for the saving of money, because it is hard without adding to the requirements. He also may not test for some of the camping requirements, because he has been on camping trips with the scout and has witnessed him selecting a camp site, or cooking a meal for the patrol. (or an ASM or older boy in the troop has verified it for him).. So MAY to me means the SM may choose to test, or he may not.. You should support him, as it is his right.

 

Now Shrubber I doubt I will convince you anymore than anyone else has, because I think Beavah did an excellent job (except for that Savings example)..

 

But I also want to add the following..

 

Your statement BSA hardly seems to omit things from a lack of printers ink... BSA writes A LOT, but BSA is known to be vague in their writings and thus subject to interpretations in many things, it makes for a lot of long discussion threads on these forums.. I may see Beavah interpretation, but I disagree. If I close one eye, squint real hard and look at your interpretation through colored glasses, I may even see your interpretation, but disagree. Others may see all 3 of our interpretations and disagree.

 

Right now you are not SM, therefore your SM has interpreted the advancement method similar to many of us who have answered your thread. Your choice is to support him, or to find another troop with your interpretation. If you support him, then have your son practice the EDGE method on whomever he wishes outside of scouts until he is proficient and then have him take pride in being able to go to a troop meeting and show off his knowledge.

Maybe someday you will be SM, and can interpret this your own way. But, just remember if you want to truly have a boy run troop, then one of the most important skills is that the older scouts can train and teach the younger scouts. Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method, but regardless training your scouts to train others is very important in a boy run troop, without it it means that either Adults will need to teach & train, or your older scouts will do a poor job of it.. Either way if you are SM, you may get your scouts their ranks quickly, but dont be surprised if they come in dead last at a camporee competition with the other troops first year patrols even beating out your Star & Life scouts.

 

Do you want a troop that merely signs everything off and gives your son his rank? Or do you want your son to learn, grow and become a confident self-sufficient young man? Your choice. Really at this point it should be your sons choice, if he wants to stay with this troop and become very confident of his scouting skills or go to a troop with an easy advancement policy, but learns little from the expierience. I doubt you will give him the opportunity, though because you will just feed him your one-sided viewpoint to base his decision on.

[Kudu]

moosetracker writes:

 

Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method, ... but dont be surprised if they come in dead last at a camporee competition with the other troops first year patrols even beating out your Star & Life scouts.

 

EDGE is a good training method? That is a rather extraordinary claim!

 

You know what they say: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

I bet if you took two "New Scout Patrols" of equal aptitude and spent exactly the same number of hours teaching Tenderfoot through First Class skills, the Patrol that did not spend any time on EDGE would beat (at any Camporee competition), the Patrol that wasted time on "EDGE."

 

Shrubber is stuck with his Scoutmaster's interpretation of the requirement, but as others have observed the rest of us can parse the words in the requirement to mean just about anything we want.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[moosetracker]

Tah-dah one of those who dislikes EDGE..

 

But, Kudu will expect his scouts (or at least some of them) to know their skills backwards & forwards and know how to train. Just not using EDGE. If he was into Adult lead, or untrained, ignorant unskilled scouts or they would get lost while out in the woods without Adult leadership.

 

Edge he may skimp on the requirement, because he finds it worthless..

 

But, I bet he (or rather his older scouts) wont sign off on the cooking requirement on the first burnt piece of toast a scout serves up to his patrol, or if they stubble through a first run of CPR.

 

If he did, then he would be beat in a Camporee.. Because his scouts will still be lost in the woods from last week and never make it to the Camporee.

 

Do you even do Camporees Kudu? Seems like too tame an event for your troop.

[Kudu]

What does any of that have to do with "EDGE"?

 

I would never "Explain" anything first.

 

With Scouts I jump right into "Demonstrate." They want to do stuff, not hear about it.

 

With adults I start with "Enable" so they realize they can't do something, like use a compass for instance.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

PS.. Kudu.. I never claimed EDGE is a good training method, simply "Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method".. So you proved my point.

 

I don't claim EDGE is Good, it is simply a way some may use to train. There are many other styles that are just as good.. But in some way or another your older scouts need to know how to train the younger scouts. Right now BSA is into EDGE, so that's the requirement.

[evmori]

Tell me moosetracker, what, other than a fancy acronym, does EDGE have that hasn't been in place for decades?

 

And that's what it has come down to, Venividi. A pi**ing match. EDGE has been part of the BSA for decades without the fancy acronym. It is nothing new!

[moosetracker]

Oh EDGE type of training with or without the acronym has been around for a long time. But it is still not the only way to train. Nor is it really the way BSA trains..

 

I don't think any of our BSA Adult training really uses EDGE or it's equivalent. IOLS or OWL could maybe use it if we held the training for a week.. We simply don't have time to train everything that must be covered in 2 days while using EDGE.

 

BS & CS specifics is training that just doesn't lend itself to EDGE. YPT can not at all lend itself to EDGE.. Any of the trainings that might be useful to EDGE but are on-line trainings are simply not EDGE. like climb on safely, Weather Hazards, trek-saftey, saftey afloat, safe swim defense.. None of them are EDGE simply because they are on-line.

 

You can train someone by not doing a lecture, but teaching them over and over until the can do it in their sleep. Maybe someone only learns by doing so you skip over Explain & Demonstrate, and move strait to Guide & then test them (which may considered enable). Some people only learn by leaving them alone to read and work through it themselves.. So none of the EDGE is going to work for them. People learn by different methods unique to them and so with some parts of EDGE are a waste of time, with others nothing in EDGE works for them.. With other it may be the perfect method for them to be taught with. But.. You need time to do it, and you need a subject that lends itself to this type of training.

[Gary_Miller]

When teaching hands on skills each and everyone of us use the EDGE method. Its just that we never break it down like in EDGE. Some of the steps are combined. But none are ever left out.

 

For example, most of us combine the Explain and Demonstrate steps together. We explain what we are teaching at the same-time we demonstrate how its done.

 

We may also use all the steps at the same time.

 

The point is we all use the steps, and while some may not like the acronym for what ever reason, it an easy way for a Young Man to learn the steps needed in teaching a skill.

 

If I had a young man come to me and tell me he taught someone how to tie a square knot using the EDGE method. I would say great now teach me as well. This way I'm not only letting the young man know he is trusted, I'm also testing him on what he learned. Which gives me a chance to emphasis anything which he may have missed.

[Beavah]

 

When teaching hands on skills each and everyone of us use the EDGE method. Its just that we never break it down like in EDGE. Some of the steps are combined. But none are ever left out.

 

Nah, not really.

 

That's da problem with EDGE. It sounds good, but it really isn't that helpful. Folks who are good at instructing tend to look at it and say "of course", folks who aren't good at teaching can try to follow EDGE until they're blue in the face and still not improve. It's like snake oil, it morphs to whatever da person thinks it means.

 

If yeh think it works for yeh, great. But I reckon there's a reason no one else in da educational world uses the thing.

 

If I'm teaching a young fellow how to paddle a canoe, I might just as readily put him in da front of the boat and flail for a bit. Skip lecturing or demonstratin' what a front paddler does, just start with letting him get the feel and then move right to Guiding. Same with teaching a young kid how to ride a bike. Yeh mostly put on training wheels and let him ride around and get the feel, then run along with him and encourage. Explaining and demonstrating is well nigh useless. That's true of most physical skills, eh? Blah blah blahing and demonstrating is no help whatsoever. Yeh have to get the lad to "feel" it themselves.

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

As I said in the last thread that drifted into a discussion of the merits of EDGE, I think some of you are reading much more into it than is really there. It really is nothing new or different than the way most people actually teach most skills, but with a "memory aid" added mostly to make sure that the teacher does not skip any steps. Note, I said "most people." If Kudu claims that he never explains anything first, but goes right into demonstrating it, well, I guess we'll have to take his word for it, but it doesn't make much difference because he is only one person anyway. And I think we need to remember that "explaining" does not necessarily equate to classroom instruction. Depending on the skill being taught, an adequate explanation can be one sentence, or it can be more than that. It may be that the explanation and the demonstration should be simultaneous.

 

What needs to be "explained" to me, I guess, is the hostility for this new way of describing what is mostly the same old way of teaching skills. Sometimes I think a few people are looking too hard to find things to get upset about.

[evmori]

No hostility, NJCubScouter, just don't think the requirement should be worded the way it is. Not everyone will use EDGE to teach anything and that's OK and the requirement should not include EDGE.

[BrentAllen]

EDGE goes all the way back to Green Bar Bill, in the 3rd Edition SM HB. I'm surprised at all the angst at teaching EDGE. It is a very good way to train PLs to teach skills to their patrols. You can teach a boy how to tie a timber hitch all day long, but if he doesn't know what it is used for (EXPLAIN), that skill won't do him any good.

 

As for the SM requiring the Scout to demonstrate he can use EDGE to teach a square knot:

"A Scout wanting to complete an advancement requirement must demonstrate to his leader that he has fully mastered a skill at the level expected."

SM HB, pg. 124, Advancement, Step 2 - A Scout Is Tested

 

I'd say the SM is following his training.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[NJCubScouter]

Ed, until your last post I did not think you were one of the people who has a problem with the new "EDGE" requirements.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)