When do you take the scouts word?

[acco40]

For those who are debating on whether one needs to DEMONSTRATE for requirement 4c, what on Earth do you think the "D" stands for in EDGE?

 

The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program in the troop. If he or his designate, wants to be able to witness the Scout using the EDGE method to fulfill the requirement, so be it.

[ChaiAdventure]

I just came across a similar case in my Troop. I had a boy who had the EDGE requirement checked off from summer camp. I used him to use the EDGE method to teach the EDGE method to other boys in the patrol(confusing, but it makes sense after a bit). He could not even tell them/me what EDGE stood for. Trust, but verify....

 

Of all the skills that a boy must learn, teaching is one of the most important. This is a requirment that should not be taken lightly. If a boy has completed the requirement, then it is the responsbility of the leader who signs it off to verify that the boy has performed that skill.

 

When did we become shy about verifying and simply trusting? Why do we require books to be signed and not simply trusting that all the requirements have been done? We owe it to the boys to ensure that they have met the requirements. It is not about advancement, it is about growing good citizens.

 

I would not send my child to a school that did not test. Why are we any different?

[evmori]

OK. So little Johnny teaches another person how to tie a sheep shank. Little Johnny does an excellent job teaching how to tie the sheep shank but has no idea what EDGE is. Do you sign him off because the BSA has a fancy new acronym for a teaching?

[Scoutfish]

How about this:

 

People forget things sometimes. People confuse things too. Maybe instead of a square knot, he taught a neighbor a joining knot instead ..by mistake?

 

How would you know? Have him demonstrate iyt, If he knows it, it should be no skin off his back. He shouldn't have any issue or problem demonstrating tou unless he doesn't know the knot!

 

Granted, I'm in the cub scout level, but we had the boys show us the knots they learn to tie.

 

Not just to see if they can do it, but to also make sure we are presenting and teaching in a way that they learn it.

 

So tell that scout that you are:

1) Seeing if he did indeed learn it

2) Checking to make sure that you taught it in a way that the scout understood it too.

[evmori]

Explain

Demonstrate

Guide

Enable

 

This is nothing more than a basic teaching method that has been around for decades! And in about another five years I bet we have another fancy acronym for the same thing!

 

The Scout teaches someone how to ties a square knot. He tells his Scoutmaster he did this. The Scoutmaster signs the requirement. OR in some units, a senior Scout or ASM has been given the authority to sign some requirements.

[Eagledad]

I was thinking, the district asked me to visit a Blue and Gold Banquet so I can speak a few minutes about the troop program. Less than 50 percent of Webelos cross over to troops in our area, so I really want to make an impact. I want to get these guys excited for the adventure they can add to their lives. I want them staying awake at night thinking about the adventures they will do in the troop, you know those cool things Boy Scouts do. Where to start, where to start? Yes, Yes, I have it; Guys, in the future your Scoutmaster wants you to teach another boy a skill using the EDGE method.

 

My apologies, but I am grateful that I was a SM during a time when scouts didn't have to worry about acronyms. We must understand that the average scout will have learned 90 percent of everything the troop program can teach by the age 14. More importantly, that 90 persent will have come from "observing" others during the troop activities, not listening to classroom style lectures. Why don't we use the 10 percent of lecture time for the older scouts so they role model good teaching skills while working with the younger scouts. That will give the younger scouts more time for fishing.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

The Scout teaches someone how to ties a square knot. He tells his Scoutmaster he did this. The Scoutmaster signs the requirement.

 

Yah, you can do that, but it's not the BSA program. (gosh, I feel like BobWhite... )

 

In the BSA program, the scout tries to teach a bunch of people how to tie the square knot. He practices, he gets better. He works until he's able to do a good job with EDGE or whatever.

 

After he's learned, then he gets tested by whomever the SM designates... however that person decides to test him. But it should be a test, proving that this is something he can do well, not a review of what he has done.

 

Same with any other requirement or skill. First he learns how to swim. It takes time and effort and practice. Then he gets tested with the swim test, to demonstrate that he can swim 100 yards in a strong manner with the ability to rest while swimming and floating. We don't take his word on swimming. First he learns how to tie a splint. It takes time and effort and lots of practice and some fun scenarios on campouts until he really has good splinting down and can do a good job whenever called upon. Then he gets tested. Right in da middle of a hike an adult falls down and "twists" his ankle without warning and da scout has to improvise a high quality splint. We don't take his word that he tied a splint at home, eh? Then he gets reviewed, and that's when he tells what he did to meet the requirement and the BOR takes his and the SMs word on it.

 

If yeh just take his word the very first time he teaches the knot, then I don't know what you're doing, but it's not BSA scouting advancement method. But it does explain why your lads keep "forgetting" things they supposedly learned... I mean were "signed off" on.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori]

After he's learned, then he gets tested by whomever the SM designates... however that person decides to test him. But it should be a test, proving that this is something he can do well, not a review of what he has done.

 

Huh????? Who gets tested? The person the Scout taught? I'm confused.

[shrubber]

Can all advancement requirements be tested?

 

How would you test... Earn an amount of money agreed upon by you and your parent, then save at least 50 percent of that money.

 

Demand to see it? Count it on the table in front of them? Demand a copy of a bank statement?

 

Or, do you take the Scout ( and his parents ) at their word?

 

[Beavah]

Huh????? Who gets tested? The person the Scout taught? I'm confused

 

There's training for that, eh?

 

Four Steps of Advancement

 

1. The Boy Scout learns.

2. The Boy Scout is tested.

3. The Boy Scout is reviewed.

4. The Boy Scout is recognized.

 

 

[evmori]

Yeah the Scout learns the square knot. He teaches it to his buddy he shoots hoops with. He tells his Scoutmaster he did this. The requirement is signed off.

[Beavah]

Yeh can do that, evmori. Nobody will stop you. If it works for yeh, great.

 

But it's not the BSA advancement program. To my mind you are subtracting from da requirements and shortchanging the kids from what could and should be a lot of fun and learning. And I'll bet a few weeks later your scouts will have "forgotten" how.

 

Learning to tie a square knot is a joining requirement, not a Tenderfoot requirement. The Tenderfoot requirement is to learn how to teach a simple skill like tying a square knot. Learning how to teach requires time and practice. Yeh don't become proficient at teaching da first time you do it. Besides, like all the BSA requirements, it's fun. So yeh practice it and you get feedback and yeh practice some more until you get really good at teaching the square knot.

 

You know, EDGE. You as the scoutmaster (or PL or whoever is teaching the requirement) explain how to teach, then demonstrate how to teach, then guide the scout as he teaches a bunch of times, then let the scout practice teaching on his own a bunch of times.

 

Then and only then, after da scout has really learned and gotten good, he is tested by teaching the square knot in front of an "expert" at teaching square knots. By then he's comfortable and confident, and not goin' to forget how in a few weeks or months, eh? He's going to be able to do it, even months later with all da adults 300 feet away.

 

Only part where "telling" comes into it is at da BOR, where the lad may tell the board how he learned and was tested on the requirement.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah]

How would you test... Earn an amount of money agreed upon by you and your parent, then save at least 50 percent of that money.

 

Hi shrubber. Welcome to da forums BTW!

 

Yep, all boy scout advancement is supposed to follow the four steps, and be "tested" by the Scoutmaster or his/her designee. It's different from Cub Scouts, where we take the word of Akela (his parents) that the boy has done his best. In Boy Scouting, the boy must meet a standard as determined by an "expert" designated by the Scoutmaster.

 

The newest requirements like the one you mention and the one this thread got started on are poorly worded. First draft wording that needed some editing, IMNSHO. Maybe they'll be fixed in next year's Requirements book. But yeh have to read 'em the same way yeh read all the requirements. In Boy Scouting, a boy earns a badge for what he's able to do, not what he has done. So when da requirement says "select a campsite" it means that the boy is able to, on his own, select an appropriate campsite in a variety of conditions, and someone with experience in campsite selection confirmed that by testing him on it at least once...not that he gave his word that he selected a campsite with his family once.

 

So what we want a lad to learn from the requirement is the pain and joy of saving money. At the end, what we want him to be able to do, on his own, is earn money and set some of it aside for long term savings.

 

What's a good test for that? Yeh got me. At some point a lad and his parents can probably find ways of doin' some creative accounting. As a Scoutmaster, I might hire him for some small job and pay him, then check down the road to see if he saved some of it. Maybe a bank statement with his deposit records ("hey, what about that time I paid you for..."), maybe da envelope of cash from his safe at home, maybe his records of his earnings and saving. Yeh work with da parents to try to see if the lad really has learned the lesson of saving, but the lad has to satisfy his SM, not his parents.

 

Beavah

[clemlaw]

OK, I'm still at the Cub Scout level after many years. And when I was a Scout, as shocking as it may sound, the EDGE method had not yet been invented, yet most of us still managed to figure out the square knot. In fact, fire hadn't even been invented yet, so there was no requirement for us to light a fire. We were required to invent it ourselves!

 

But the way I read the requirement, the scout needs to "teach" another person how to tie a square knot. IMHO, it's definitionally impossible to "teach" someone something they already know. So in order to complete this requirement, the scout needs to find one person who does not yet know how to tie a square knot. There are a finite number of such people in the world. And every time a scout completes this requirement, that number is reduced by one. Most importantly, unless everyone is asleep at the switch, there probably isn't anyone present at any scout meeting who doesn't already know how to tie one. Therefore, there's nobody who can be "taught" at a scout function, and in the vast majority of cases, the person being taught is going to be a friend, a younger brother or sister, etc., and most of the occasions to do this teaching are going to be outside the presence of any scout leader.

 

Therefore, it seems perfectly normal for this requirement to be tested by the scout reporting something like that he taught his little brother how to tie a square knot. A little bit of follow up discussion should put to rest any doubts about how successful this was.

 

Sheesh, this topic seems to make everyone awfully EDGEy.

[shrubber]

I am of the opinion that you need not read into or expand on what the book calls for in requirements. Doing so, would be adding to the requirement,no?

If it says, Demonstrate, then the scout must demonstrate.

If it says, Discuss, then the scout must discuss with the SM.

If it says, Participate....and so on.

 

Where the requirement says Teach, or Save....then they have to do just that, not more.

 

Isn't it possible, that this promotes doing activities apart from Scouting, in the troop atmosphere? That there are things that you can accomplish as a scout without having to be tested and confirmed?

Isn't this away to promote and enable a scout to live up to the Trustworthy part of his law.

 

I agree that a scout should be tested, and 99% of the advancements require it. I see a few that do not. Perhaps this is for the best.