Is not receiving an award "Punishment"?

[Beavah]

You are a complex person beavh, the vast majority of your post in context say do whats right for the scouts. I'm lost at why you don't respond that way in this discussion. Its black and white to me, what is your gray area that I don't see?

 

Maybe I'm just a confused person, Eagledad.

 

This thread was meant to be a generic discussion about the attitude that not getting an award or recognition is "punishment". I was tryin' to avoid the hijack back to the topic of the original thread about the committee, which I think is what you're referring to?

 

In that case what we have is a SM who is venting to a district trainer about his troop committee, and da question is what we should say to the Scoutmaster that will be best for the kids.

 

On the one hand, a lot of folks think the best thing to say to the Scoutmaster is that the Committee is wrong/awful/stupid/punishing kids, based on the Scoutmaster's version of the tale while venting. Jump in on the Scoutmaster's side, pour some more fuel on the fire of a trivial adult argument, and watch a troop burn to the ground.

 

Personally, I don't think that's best for the kids.

 

I think what's best for the kids is to pour water on a trivial adult argument, eh? To help the SM see that the committee has a good point, and good intentions, and a role to play, and help him understand their perspective isn't totally off base. And if I were talkin' to the committee, I'd help 'em understand that the SM has a good point, and good intentions, and a role to play, and help 'em understand that he isn't totally off base either. Try to get 'em back on the course of being on the same page, respecting each other, and workin' together.

 

I think that's what's best for da kids, because adults sharing a vision and developing a good sense of perspective and mutual respect is vastly more important to a troop than whether boys get "credit" for an outing that none of 'em are likely to need for advancement anyways.

 

Or put another way, which is the better example to the boys? The SM who throws a fit, runs around complainin', takes his marbles and goes off to form another troop? Or the SM who takes a deep breath, says "yeah, the committee has a right to push the leaders to be fully trained" and then sits with the boys and explains that, then promises to do better and see that they do even more camping? In both cases he disagrees with the call, but which is the better model of character?

 

This thread was meant to be a different, broader perspective version of that, eh? When we use advancement to help kids grow in character, what are we teaching? Are we teaching that they're entitled to awards? Are we teaching that what adults do is play the sea lawyer and argue small details of the regulations until they're screaming at each other in righteous indignation? Or are we teaching 'em that an award is something some one else gives you when they recognize your skill, ability, and character? Is recognition something that others owe you, or is it something else?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[nolesrule]

" Is recognition something that others owe you, or is it something else?"

 

Doesn't that depend on what the recognition is for?

 

Some recognitions are honors from others. No defined set of criteria, may or may not require a nomination for it. Might be the Silver Beaver, might be OA Vigil, might be an award for recognizing best scout spirit at summer camp.

 

Some recognitions have a defined set of criteria that must be met. They are rewards for completing the to-do list. Advancement recognition is this type. Do the tasks, get the carrot. Withholding the carrot that has been earned sends the wrong message.

[Eagledad]

>>Maybe I'm just a confused person, Eagledad.

[Eamonn]

Back when I was serving as a District Commissioner, I was really pushing for a guy who had served for a very long time as a Unit Commissioner to get the Silver Beaver.

The night the committee had met I called a pal of mine and asked if this U/C had got it?

My pal informed me that he hadn't. I started a long rant about how unfair it was and what a bunch of nit-wits the committee were. I then asked who had got the Beaver?

I was really taken back when my pal said that I'd got it.

I knew in my heart of hearts that this other chap was far more deserving and more worthy than me. But I also knew that I had no control over what the committee had done. So I was honored to accept the award. The following year I sat on the Silver Beaver Committee and I made a case for the U/C and I was thrilled when he got it.

I think it is a little wrong for any of us to look down our noses at people who do or who don't have awards.

Some awards are easy.

A Lad who can't swim a mile, should never receive the award for swimming a mile. In fact to give it to him would be wrong.

But a Lad who has proved that he has and can swim a mile deserves the award. It makes little or no difference how good or bad the Lad might be. Holding it back as some kind of punishment, seems wrong to me.

Meeting set down requirements should also be a matter of black and white, either they are met or they aren't.

We seem to run into problems when things are not so black and white.

I like to think that we are not in any way about punishing the kids we serve.

At times we do need to make these kids aware of their short comings and there are times when a Scout might need to have a little more time in order to show that he or she is really doing their best to live up to the oath and law.

Most of the Scouts I've known who have been in Scouting for a while are not in for the awards, they remain in because they are enjoying what they are doing and the people that they are doing it with. Much the same can be said about the adults.

It is kinda sad that in many ways Scouting has become about awards and badges.

The high point of the year should be the Summer camp. A time when kids can be kids enjoying the great outdoors, enjoying time spent with pals and learning to live together.

In place of this we have a group of Scouts running around rushing to get from one merit badge class to the next. This seems to have become the norm. Everybody seems to except it, but no one seems to have ever asked the Scouts.

I wonder how many Scouts would push to make Eagle if the adults weren't pushing and making such a big deal about it?

If it wasn't such a big deal, then not getting it would never be perceived as punishment.

Ea.

[Scoutfish]

"Is not receiving an award "Punishment"? "

 

WEll, simply put.....no!

But only if we are talking about an award.

 

I guess the way I see it is like this: An award is something you get to recognize something you were doing, gonna do, or did anyway, without expectation of getting anything or any recognition for doing it.

 

But that's the key thing here , no? W are talking awards, not rank, not badges, not cash or prizes.

 

I guess I see the relationship to getting awards based on my own experiences:

 

I used to be a fire fighter. I recieved firefighter of the year award several times. I didn't set ot, plan or count on getting it. I didn't set my goal or work in a way to get it. I just did my firefighting duties in the way I felt a fireman should. I did them to the best of my ability.

 

I am now currently a garage door installer. Matter of fact, I am a senior field supervisor/quality control/ trainer for my company.

I go to jobs that require extra special care or neatness that the other employees may not quite handle.

 

Basically, I go to houses that the homeowners are not just extra picky, but anally out of control picky. People who couldn't intall a garage door to save thier lives..but can point out anything they "know without a doubt" ( and without experience or training) that is wrong. Yeah...."those" customers!

 

Now, I don't necessarrily go the extra mile so much as install these doors in the same way I'd do them at my own house. I just do it right and do it the best way I can - both whuile being clean and neat about it.

 

Now, here's the point I'm getting at: I do not expect tips for doing my job. Alot of the other employess get put out or a bit miffed if they do not only get a tip..but a nice tip.

 

My feelings are this: The customer does not owe me anyting for doing what I am already getting paid to do. I appreciate it if the do, but they don't owe it to me nor is it expected.

 

But when they do..It is an award. IT's a bonus or special recognition for something I was gonna do or did anyways.

 

That's how I see awards in scouting.

 

Now, I do expect getting payed my regular salary, including extra compensation for extra work such as working overtimes, during holidays or having to drop what I'm doing and coming back when I'm already on vacation.

 

I do not expect Christmas or year end bonuses. I enjoy them greatly, and I appreciate them, but do not expect them.

 

But let me clarify: Earning rank, advancement, beltloops, activity pins, or completeing requirements is not awards. They something you get for something you do. They have set goals and expectations. There is a certain thing you have to do, and it is something you seek, plan , or obtain.

 

Reaching rank is a goal that you set out for at the beggining.

 

So, to answer the original question: Not recieving an award is not punishment, but could be considered a pretty crappy attitude on those who are in the position to hand them out, if they choose to ignore one individual while going overboard with another in the same circumstances.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[moosetracker]

Here is a different angle on this. If somone earns something, should there be a reason to take it away?

 

I don't think my current troop does it, or there has been no need to use it. But in past troops if a boy earns the totin chit but then does something that does not follow the rules, a corner can be taken off until all 4 corners removed and he has to re-earn it. Or if severe enough the totin chit is just taken away. My sons went to a different council camp and they gave out pocket flaps for the totin chit not cards, I joked with them that they had better not do anything that forced a corner to be removed.

 

I also know of some Eagle ranks earned and then taken away. One was in our state over a boy that earned his eagle then combined his eagle celebration & graduate party into a drinking and drug party and everyone was arrested and it hit the papers. There was a show on about an Eagle scout (maybe before YP?) whose SM was taking the boys out into the woods as the only adult leader and molesting them and turning them into sort of those rebel military type that practice overthrowing the government..(can't think of what they are called) But they were training to protect their SM from anyone arresting him. Some parents were weird too, knowing about the molesting, but not reporting it if SM stayed away from their son. When one boy told his parents, parents did not tell a sole for a week (again weird) and SM spent week conviencing boy to kill his family to protect the SM secret.. So he did.. This boy had his Eagle revolked.

 

I don't see a problem with revoking a totin chit to teach a boy safety if he is not following it. Or in revoking the Eagle award, if the boy does something that states he really didn't earn it.

 

I don't believe I have ever heard of an Eagle rank being revolked if the crime is not linked with the Eagle rank in the newspaper. Say someone who earns Eagle, 20 years later murders his wife.

 

But what do you feel about an award earned being taken away?

[evmori]

If somone earns something, should there be a reason to take it away?

 

Only if it was earned fraudulently.

[Scoutfish]

I agree:if it was earned legitimately, it cannot be taken away.

Eagle is earned based on what? A perticulare set of requirements that have been met, actions performed,attitude and, a set of "achievemnts"? Right?

 

One you meet that and complete that, you earn Eagle right?

 

So it's a done deal.

 

Now,a scout may do something stupid, idiotic or even "unEaglelike", but he still met the requirements to earn Eagle.

 

It's diferent witha driver's license.which is a priveledge that is earned with the stipulation that certain actions will involve it being revoked.

 

Same with totin chip, whittlin chip , etc. You know that you have agree to meet certain standards to carry that card , and that it can be revoked.

[moosetracker]

That may hold true of the Eagle who then had a party of booze & drugs to celebrate his Eagle award. But wouldn't earned fraudulently be the case of the Eagle whose SM handed out awards for sexual favors, and learning to murder for him?.. (Oh I forgot to mention, one boy walked away, told what was going on but was not believed. The SM wanted his troop to murder him. Luckily they failed.) Although they only took Eagle away from this boy, did any boy in that troop really earn Eagle??

[Scoutfish]

Now,I say this while myself never having been a scout or even worked on the Boy Scout level. Basically, I don't have the familiarity of the workings like you do.

 

 

I don't really see the boy in that particular case as losing an Eagle Award as having lost it or it being taken away.

 

He really didn't earn it to start with. The award was almost a "I'll give you this if you keep hush , hush about what's going on. The SM didn't do his part right even if all the other peole involved did.

 

That boy having eagle wasn't so much as something earned as it was a bribe.