Is not receiving an award "Punishment"?

[Beavah]

Yah, so maybe I'm an old guy who is just out to lunch.

 

I believe that people are not entitled to awards or recognitions.

 

Awards or recognitions are something that other people give people who they feel deserve to be so recognized.

 

I know I'm buckin' the modern entitlement mentality and da helicopter parent "my Johnny is so wonderful he deserves to be recognized" crowd. I don't mind. I'm a contented traditionalist in this regard.

 

So to me, not receiving an award is just not receiving an award. I don't do Scouting to get awards, I do scouting because I love scouting. I know there are some folks who get their shorts in a knot when they don't get a Silver Beaver because they feel they "deserve" it or are being "punished" or some such. I've never understood that. Just keep havin' fun Scouting and doin' good stuff. Maybe you'll get it next year.

 

Same with kids, eh? Not getting Canoeing MB is just not (yet) getting Canoeing MB. You're not being "punished" because you didn't learn J-Stroke as fast as your friends, you just haven't (yet) learned J-Stroke. Not getting credit for a POR we can argue back and forth about rules-wise, but it's not "punishment." It's just not (yet) having demonstrated leadership or responsibility at an appropriate level. Kids who don't receive Eagle are not being punished. They could be fantastic kids. They just didn't earn Eagle.

 

I think da notion that kids are entitled to awards probably comes out of da way a lot of folks do Cub Scouting, eh? Junior will feel bad if he doesn't get the same awards as his friends, and maybe he "did his best."

 

Advancement works as a method because it's a positive reinforcement, eh? Not giving positive reinforcement is not the same thing as negative reinforcement. Not buying your son ice cream is not the same thing as grounding him for the weekend.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

I'd agree with you to a certain point. Not receiving an award isn't punishment. You either earn it or you don't.

 

But in the situation described in the other thread, the boys involved did everything they were supposed to - they were going camping. They had no way of knowing that the troop committee and the program leadership were apparently in a disagreement over adult training. That shouldn't affect the boys.

[Beavah]

Yah, the punishment thing comes up in a lot more places than the parent thread, so I was talkin' more generically than that, eh?

 

But in that respect, I reckon in an ideal world all communication is crystal clear and we never have to live with the results of others' decisions. In the real world, of course, referees make bad calls all the time; folks come with different perspectives on da rules. While arguing and complaining about referees is a bit of an American pasttime for fans, isn't there an element of sportsmanship involved in such things when we talk about participants? If a ref made a bad call, is that "punishment"? If an Recognition Committee made a questionable call on a Silver Beaver decision, is that "punishment"?

 

I just don't think so, eh? I think it's da folks whose job it is to give out awards making an arguable call. To which the proper response is to be be a good sport. Go camping again, it'll be fun. Get the award next month. Keep doing scouting, it's fun. Get Silver Beaver next year.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[NealOnWheels]

Beavah,

 

In Scouting you are entitled to an award when you earn it. Witholding an award when a Scout has earned it is just plain wrong.

 

I don't think the term punishment is correct. That would imply an award was being witheld because the Scout misbehaved. In the case you are refering to it was the adults misbehaving.

[perdidochas]

Neal has a good point.

 

If someone doesn't get an award because they didn't meet the requirements for the award, it's not punishment. If someone doesn't get an award because the person in charge doesn't like the person's behavior (outside of the behavior needed for the award), then it can be a punishment.

 

[moosetracker]

I also will strip this a bit further. Is this situation really an award?.. I don't think so. When someone goes camping to mark the person as camping for 3 days and 2 nights is not really an award, it is just accounting the facts of what they did.

 

Did the boys go on a troop camping trip? Yes they did.. Should they be recorded in the account records as having gone on a camping trip. Yes they should. Does it matter that the Adults were not IOLS trained? No it does not.

 

For going on a camping trip, they don't get an award, what they do get is an accounting of the fact, so when in the future they come up for a rank, or the camping MB or whatever that camping trip will be recorded history.

 

Now maybe a scout can talk over this camping trip with an MBC and the councilor will award it to them. But, how many scouts after being told "It does not count" are going to know that the MBC can choose to count it anyway.

 

Now as for getting an award, everytime you sneeze.. No that is uncalled for. But an award, and an accurate accounting of the facts are two seperate things.

[The Blancmange]

 

If someone doesn't get an award because they didn't meet the requirements for the award, it's not punishment. If someone doesn't get an award because the person in charge doesn't like the person's behavior (outside of the behavior needed for the award), then it can be a punishment.

And to complete the line of reasoning, apropos the thread that spawned this one, if someone doesn't get an award because the person in charge doesn't like the behavior of a third person, then it is just a preposterous misuse of power.

[evmori]

The committee or committees in the other thread are morons plain and simple.

 

Not receiving an award for an earned award is wrong, no punishment. But receiving an award because "my Johnny is so wonderful he deserves to be recognized" is also wrong.

[Stosh]

Sometimes awards are nothing more than political tokenism. Once that gets to that point the whole value of the award falls off.

 

Giving a trophy to everyone win or lose is just such a situation.

 

However, there are other times when awards can be cheapened by how they are handled.

 

For example: 3 adult leaders all received the "sparkplug" award on the same evening of district award night. Well 20 years later, two of them are Silver Beaver and the third just received District Award of Merit a couple of years back. The only difference between the three is that 2 of them did council FoS. The same year they did that they got Silver Beaver. Kinda makes one wonder how important it is in the long run. While words like Silver Beaver and Eagle might mean something by definition, in reality it is as diverse as there are people. One of the three is for the most part no longer active in Scouting. The other two are SM's.

 

I wonder how many boys look at Eagle in the way some adults look at SB?

 

Stosh

[Beavah]

When someone goes camping to mark the person as camping for 3 days and 2 nights is not really an award, it is just accounting the facts of what they did.

 

Yah, so what's da difference between that and arguin' balls and strikes with the umpire? Yeh just are disputing the "facts" with whoever is makin' a call on what "fact" should be recorded.

 

Arguin' balls and strikes isn't noble and righteous, it's petty. Really all you're doin' is disrupting the game for everybody.

 

In Scouting you are entitled to an award...

 

Yah, hmmm.... Just different views I guess. I think the notion of being entitled to the recognition of others is "just plain wrong." It teaches the wrong thing about character and values in my mind. Just MHO, of course.

 

That's not quite what we're talkin' about anyway, eh? Because a Scouting award is not "earned" unless the boy has learned the skills and met the proficiency and spirit requirements as determined by da SM and a unanimous board of review. I don't think anybody is suggesting that someone not get the patch after the BOR has ruled unanimously in his favor (unless in da intervening week the lad shoots someone). What we're talkin' about are cases where either the SM or the committee/BOR have not unanimously determined that the lad has learned the skills and met the requirements. So the award has not yet been "earned" in the eyes of the umpires.

 

But I think da most important thing for Scouting is whether an award has been earned in the eyes of the other scouts. So many times yeh see adults who do what jblake describes, and give awards out so a boy does not feel bad, or because he's "entitled", or so they don't feel like they should "punish" him. That only cheapens the award, eh? Because da respect of your peers has to be earned first, before any award which is a token of that respect is valid.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

Sorry I disagree, the recording of if the boy went camping with the troop or not, is not a a judgement call. If the troop went out and pitched tents and spent a few days & nights out of doors, then the scout went camping with the troop. That is just a fact.

 

That is like me paying my gas bill, and someone telling me they are not going to credit me for paying the bill, because Joe Brown didn't buy the house on Main street.

 

Sorry I paid my gas bill regardless of what Jo Brown did, and I want that fact recorded. Do I want an award for paying my gas bill. No.. I just want the fact recorded that I paid my bill.

[Rockford8070]

If they earn it they should receive it. End of story. I see some of this in Cub Scouts too. Parents think that just because their son was there all year he should get his rank badge. Wrong answer.

[83Eagle]

They're called requirements, not suggestions. The answer is no.

[Eagledad]

This isn't a strikes and balls kind of call, its a catch the fly ball than drop it kind of call. No judgement required.

 

You are a complex person beavh, the vast majority of your post in context say do whats right for the scouts. I'm lost at why you don't respond that way in this discussion. Its black and white to me, what is your gray area that I don't see?

 

Barry

[evmori]

Yah, so what's da difference between that and arguin' balls and strikes with the umpire? Yeh just are disputing the "facts" with whoever is makin' a call on what "fact" should be recorded.

 

A strike depends on the umpire. A night camping is a night camping. No umpire required.