Changing MB Counselors

[shortridge]

Interesting. I read "may" as referring to the blue card, since they're optional and not required for use.

 

I think either system could work. But unfortunately, the real point of having the SM involved - instead of just printing out the council or district list and giving it to the boy - is to put some quality control in there. If SMs have heard of substandard practices on the part of a particular MBC, it's their jobs to steer their Scouts toward more qualified people.

[CalicoPenn]

I've yet to see any official BSA program material that states that the Scoutmaster "Assigns" a Merit Badge Counselor. I've seen lots of unit "by-laws" (read: worthless pieces of paper developed by adults who think they need to improve upon the program materials) us the word "assign", and ocassional training pieces put our by Council and District advancement folks acknowledging (without stating it is correct or incorrect) that some Troops may "assign" MBC's, but nothing from National that states anywhere that SM's "assign" MBC's.

 

A lot of people interpret the meaning of "giving the name and phone number of a Merit Badge Counselor" as assigning an MBC. I don't happen to be one of them. I interpret it to mean that the Scoutmaster has the list of approved MBC's and is providing a name from a list - that's it, just providing a name from a list. If the Scout want's another name, the SM should provide another name. "Assigning" an MBC is, as has been said, too much adult control over the process. SM's are there to guide, not to dictate.

 

What happens if you "assign" an MBC and the parent objects? What if that parent wasn't an MBC for the badge his son wanted and objects? What do you do? I know I would provide the name of another MBC. And if the parent was the MBC, I'd say okie doke - you're it. You can point to Troop "policy" all you want - the bottom line is that if the dad decided not to even engage in complaining (and calling your wife was not appropriate) and just decided to do it himself anyway, and if he's a registered MBC, and Johnny showed up with a completed "Blue Card" signed by a registered MBC, Troop policy or not, he earned the badge - you don't give it to him, Daddy MBC walks into Council with his copy of the Blue Card and complains that Scoutmaster Buffalo Skipper is refusing to award the Merit Badge which he, as MBC, has signed off on. Won't be pretty.

[evmori]

I've yet to see any official BSA program material that states that the Scoutmaster "Assigns" a Merit Badge Counselor.

 

It's in the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, Advancement Guidelines and on the BSA web site.

 

From the web site

Pick a Subject. Talk to your Scoutmaster about your interests. Read the requirements of the merit badges you think might interest you. Pick one to earn. Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors.

[Twocubdad]

You're creating imaginary problems, Calico. Just because a troop "assigns" counselors doesn't mean the leaders are some sort of control freaks. Of course if a parent has a problem with an "assigned" counselor you give him another name. You also privately ask why in case there is some issue with that counselor you need to know abou.

 

If a Scout short-circuits the process of starting a merit badge, goes against the direction of the troop leaders and completes the MB with his parent as a counselor, you award the badge but counsel both the parent and the Scout as to how and why the troop does things they way they do. If the parent refuses to respect the wishes of the troop leaders, perhaps they need to find a troop they can support.

 

That a troop and Scoutmaster want to counsel a Scout before he starts a MB and make sure the Scout is ready for the badge AND gets hooked up with a good counselor doesn't make the troop some sort of second-rate adult-led Webelos III den. And becase a some lazy SM ignores his responsibility, gives out blue cards by the dozen and lets the Scouts shop for a counselor who will pencil whip the requirements, doesn't mean they're running a merit badge mill either. (See, I can spin it in the other direction, too.)

 

It simply means that the program has enough felxibility to allow leaders to tailor the program to suit the needs of the scouts and the abilities, strengths and weaknesses of the leaders.

[IM_Kathy]

#1 I can totally understand - I know there are times when I've had a scout working on MB with me and something will come up with my unit position that I need to deal with and have to postpone our MB chat to the next meeting... and family/work things will come about.

 

#2 I'm going to assume that at the time Johnny wanted to do that badge this person wasn't registered. I know we recently had adults add in those centenial MB. So now he knows of another councilor and knows the MBC is working with others on X dates. I can understand that one.

 

#3 While there is no rule about not having parent as a MBC I prefer to not be the MBC for my son unless we don't have anyone else nearby. I'm the only Swimming, Lifesaving, and Astronomy councilor in our troop... I made my son take them at summer camp and then finish off his partial with me. The main reason is I know I'm actually tougher on my own kid even though I know I shouldn't be, and I also know others might think I'm being easier on him. But the 1 thing I would've said to the father is the fact that he's still welcome to work with his son - just that you'd like him to work with this MBC as well because ___________.... there are a lot of MB's were a scout needs to do some at home learning or get some extra help learning knots or such and that he can work with those at home with his dad and then demonstrate his skill to the MBC for sign-off. Also mention that with MB they still have to have a buddy and if there is no other scout working on that badge that the parent could be the buddy and this would allow the scout the ability to learn from 2 people. And one thing I've learned through my years with working with kids is that you can word the exact same thing to 2 boys and 1 will get it and the other won't and you have to tailor to the person you are working with.

 

of course all of that I wouldn't have said until I said "I'm sorry, but I will not listen to someone who is yelling and screaming at me... when you have calmed down and are able to carry on a proper converstion please call me and I'd be happy to discuss this with you"

[Buffalo Skipper]

Johnny came to our troop after mom and dad burned the bridges at his old troop. I have details but will not post them, except to say this, that they left over a moral issue regarding gambling within the troop. Though they made that decision based upon their moral obligtations, I feel it was an excuse for failed expectations on behalf of Johnny's parents. Mom and Dad are 100% trained. All Cub Scout training, Boy Scout leader training, IOLS, WB, and they even took a "family vacation" to PTC 2 years ago. They still don't get it.

 

While I was "warned" by the other troop (and other non-troop scouters) about Mr. and Mrs. Johnny, we were at a low point in our (adult) leadership, and I felt that their experience and training could be tempered and integrated. The CoR, CC and other troop committee leaders all had reservations, but were willing to back me in my support of these two. Read on....

 

Johnny went to the NJ. Parents showed up as well, both with NJ sightseeing and at the NJ itself. There was an incident, for which I have some details, but they are sketchy. Long story short, while touring DC before the NJ one parent of a different scout (not a contingent troop leader) tried to get the patrol to go one way (when the SM had said no) while Johnny did not want to disobey SM. Other parent had a meltdown in front of Mr. and Mrs. Johnny, and most SM ended being called from across town to fix it. Scouts in Johnny's patrol were not kind to him the rest of the trip. While at the NJ, his parents kept him from troop activities and on at least 2 occasions, Johnny got in trouble for being late. I later emailed the contingent SM asking how my 2 scouts had done. He went into none of these details, but he did say this: "...'Johnny' did well, but I think there was a bit too much parent structuring of his adventure. This delayed him really finding his fit into the troop. His parents are really nice and do care...but I think they needed to let 'Johnny' just go...." I couldn't have put it more kindly or accurately.

 

In the another thread, I mentioned that while Johnny was acting SPL for our August campout, they came out to watch. Johnny struggled to build a fire with wet wood (as did 2 of 3 patrols) for cooking; no stoves on the campout. Myself and ASM#1 tag teamed the 2 patrols and mentored them through the process of wet wood fires. It was slow. Remember that these were their cooking fires, and Mom and Dad were there to "observe." When they started handling the patrols Dutch ovens (after standing over the fires with umbrellas), I pulled dad aside and politely asked that he not interfere with the scouts' cooking. He proceeded to blast me about not teaching the scouts enough about cooking with fire, providing conversion charts from charcoal, and leaving the out in the rain to fail. ASM#1 stepped in and helped defuse the situation, but the best we could do was agree to disagree. In the end Johnny burned a little of the bottom of his bread/casserole while the top was not finished (BTW, the bottom burned because dad insisted it get put directly on the fire so as not to be finished too late). I worked him through removing the DO from the fire and baking the top, with coals. In the end, his cornbread/casserole turned out really good and there was no burned taste at all. No harm done. Hearing the father talk about it later, it was clear that anything short of perfection is a complete failure. Did I mention that Johnny is a Life scout and could not even identify the correct type of kindling and tender to start a fire?

 

At the PLC debrief a week later, Johnny expressed "his" opinion that requiring scouts to cook over an open fire was too much since we had spent 4.5 hours swimming at a nearby spring (swimming was the main activity of the campout). Next time, he suggested cooking over fire should only be planned when no other activities are scheduled.

 

Then there was the incident which started this thread.

 

I am reluctant to follow Twocubdad's advice, only because Mr. Johnny is now offshore and will likely not be back for 2 months or more. Sending said letter may put Mrs. Johnny in an awkward position. Likewise, Mrs. Johnny, every bit as "involved" as Mr., has recently been polite enough to keep her comments to herself. I don't know. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks....

 

[Eagle92]

As they call it in my neck of the woods, a 'Come to Jesus" meeting is definitely in order between you, COR, and CC with Mr Johnny when he gets back. The only person he's hurting in the son.

 

 

As for cooking over a wood fire, you are joking about it being too much right?!?!?! That should be a staple of Scouting, where permissible of course.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[CalicoPenn]

Mr. & Mrs. Johnny may be helicopter parents, but they are trained helicopter parents - which means they know the program as well (if not better) than you do. They know that the BSA has no rules against parents acting as MBC's for their son. They know that there is no rule that states the Scoutmaster "assigns" an MBC (side to Ed - the books don't mention the word "assign" - that is just one interpretation of the meaning of what the books do say). They know that Troop policy wilts in the face of conflicting National policy. I wouldn't be surprised at all if their knowledge of the program has led to the conflicts they've had in the previous Troop. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other Troop, which you've mentioned seems to allow gambling, presumably on Troop outings (what else do they allow? Drinking?) isn't quite running the program on a true North path, and may not be the best source for information on anyone. That means you need to be extra-sharp and be prepared to pick your battles. Taking the parents aside to tell them to let the lads handle it when trying to light fires and cook with wet wood was a battle you could win. Telling them Dad can't be his son's MBC is just not worth the battle.

 

"Long story short, while touring DC before the NJ one parent of a different scout (not a contingent troop leader) tried to get the patrol to go one way (when the SM had said no) while Johnny did not want to disobey SM. Other parent had a meltdown in front of Mr. and Mrs. Johnny, and most SM ended being called from across town to fix it. Scouts in Johnny's patrol were not kind to him the rest of the trip"

 

What does this have to do with Johnny other than showing that Johnny is trustworthy, obedient and brave? I read this as some other parent - not one of Johnny's, tried to steer this Patrol in a direction the Scoutmaster had already nixed, and Johnny kept the trust of the SM by bravely standing up to the wayward parent and saying we need to be obedient to the SM's wishes and keep with the route we're on. This parent had a meltdown in front of the boys and Johnny's parents, but how is this a negative reflection on either Johnny or Johnny's parents? Is there more to this story than you're telling us? If the boys weren't kind to Johnny the rest of this trip because he stayed true to the SM's wishes, then the SM failed Johnny by not reminding the rest of the boys what is meant by the Scout law, specifically Trustworthy.

 

"At the PLC debrief a week later, Johnny expressed "his" opinion that requiring scouts to cook over an open fire was too much since we had spent 4.5 hours swimming at a nearby spring (swimming was the main activity of the campout). Next time, he suggested cooking over fire should only be planned when no other activities are scheduled."

 

And perhaps you should listen to what Johnny is saying. I agree with Johnny here. If I'm spending a full afternoon at a swimming hole, or on a canoeing trip, or on a long hiking trip, cooking over an open fire, which takes more time than cooking over a stove, may very well be a bit too ambitious. 4.5 hours of swimming, of canoeing, of hiking, takes a lot of energy - and cooking over an open fire requires more energy and alertness than cooking over a stove. And after 4.5 hours of activity, Scouts need to get more fuel in to their bodies - sooner than later. A half hour on a stove versus 1.5 hours with an open fire - which does that better?

 

Feedback is a gift - yet the use of Johnny's offered feedback as if its some kind of evidence of a lack of something on Johnny's part indicates to me a leader who isn't listening because his mind has already been closed - perhaps by the statements of the previous Troop.

 

"Did I mention that Johnny is a Life scout and could not even identify the correct type of kindling and tender to start a fire?"

 

So what? Get used to it. I know lots of Eagle Scouts that couldn't identify the correct type of kindling and tender to start a fire. I know lots of former Scouts that couldn't tie a square knot to save their life. In Scouts, we teach skills, and reinforce them by using them. Learning and being tested on something one time doesn't mean I'm going to remember it forever. But constant repetition will help me remember it. Most of us learn new things everyday - and something most of us don't think about is that we re-learn things all the time too. I can't count the number of times I've been reading a historical sign on the side of the road and realizing that I forgot that I already knew it at one time.

 

Gary Miller (presciently) mentioned the possibility that Johnny wanted to work with his dad on the Merit Badge because it might be one of the few times he has to interact with his dad - and now you've pretty much admitted that Dad is going to be offshore for at least a couple of months. Perhaps you should be factoring this in too. While I like your suggesting that former Troop member as his MBC (and that's my interpretation of giving the name of a counselor from the approved list - a suggestion), when Johnny said he really wanted to work with his father on it, did you not stop to think that Johnny's dad is away offshore for lengths of time and this would be a great opportunity for them to spend some time together, with dad teaching his son about some of the things he loves? I can understand why either or both Johnny and his dad would be devestated by your blind insistence that Johnny use the MBC you "assigned". We speak of merit badges as being part of adult association - but does that always need to be some other adult, especially when one of the prime adults in the lad's life is away for long periods of time?.

 

I'll be blunt - I think your mind has been poisoned by what that other unit's leaders had to say about Johnny and his parents. Leaders that apparently think gambling is ok on Scout activities - if so, are they really leaders you want to listen too?. The Jambo SM told you Johnny did fine, just that the parents are perhaps more directing of the experience than was ideal - but that despite that, Johnny did fine. I don't think you can be the kind of leader that Johnny needs unless you can let go of your preconceptions about Johnny and his parents. You need to erase all the negative garbage you've heard from other sources - stuff you didn't witness - from your head and start looking at Johnny, and his parents, with a fresh persepective and an open mind. From what you've described so far, I'd want this lad in my Troop - he'd likely be one of the senior leaders in no time. If you can't jettison the negativity, then you'll only succeed in failing Johnny, and ultimately, the rest of the Troop. No wonder Johnny was hesitant to set up an MBC counseling session with you for Carpentry - don't think for a moment that he doesn't sense that you dislike him and/or his parents.

 

Mr. Johnny owes your wife an apology - no question. But you may very well owe Mr. & Mrs. Johnny an apology for your attitude towards them and their son as well - I'm sure frustration with you lead to that call to your wife.

 

Forget any kind of letters - when Mr. Johnny gets back, invite him and Mr's. Johnny over for some coffee and clear the air. That's the adult thing to do - wouldn't suprise me a bit if you didn't turn this around so that you become good friends and not just Scouting aquaintences.(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

[shortridge]

A few thoughts and opinions ...

 

- To what purpose do these parents put all this training? Were they former Cubmasters? Was one of them the SM of the old troop? What positions do they hold in this new troop? Are they active on the district committee, in the OA, anything?

 

- Setting all the Scouting rules & regs aside, if anyone starts reaming me or my significant other out, lambasting and chewing and berating, I'm not going to listen very well to what they have to say. Anyone with such poor control of his emotions needs a ... something. As I tell my 6-year-old from time to time, getting mad and yelling is not going to change anyone's mind!

 

- With all that training, I find it odd that the parents do not understand that the Scoutmaster is the chief program officer of the troop, and what he or she says, generally goes. If the parents have a huge disagreement with the way things are being run, they should take it to the COR. If the COR rebuffs them, they can start their own troop. Simple solution, and end of discussion.

[evmori]

"Gives out" or "assigns". Same thing just semantics.

[Twocubdad]

Thank you shortridge, you just saved me a half-hour of typing.

 

Precisely on point.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I appreciate very much your detailed replies. I want to explain more in response to CalicoPenn and to shortidge. I have School Night for Scouting tonight (troop assisting Cub pack) and we are going 6 hrs away for a climing campout tomorrow afternoon, so I may not be able to reply completely until early next week.

 

Short reply (for CalicoPenn) is that our leadership has high hopes for Johnny. He is a great scout, regardless of whether or not his firebuilding skills are where I think they should be. I did not mean to "slam" him, or give that impression. We all believe he should be the next SPL, as he has a great vision and determination. Parents are over trained and were cub scout den leaders and ASMs in the last Troop. Because of our concerns when they joined, CoR and CC insisted they register as committee to try to keep them out of the scouts' hair. They have continually voiced that they feel they are underutilized (there and here), yet when we offered them specific positions in the troop, they declined. They have constantly undermined the scouts (PLs and SPLs) authority behind our back, and I have heard accounts of them slamming us to the WB course director and other scouters whom they know are close and personal friends of mine, but deny it to our face and try to turn it into "we are not doing things right." At summer camp mom told Johnny NOT to listen to SPL and do what she said, right in front of the troop, because he (SPL) was wrong. It was over a troop scavenger hunt turn in time (and the SPL was right). She was called out by ASM#1 who was in charge as I was at work 1/2 the week.

 

We want Johnny to be SPL, as he feel he has much to contribute to the troop, but we are working hard to keep the parents at arm's length. I will write more later...

 

Don't stop with the replies in the mean time.

[Mrw1]

I generally would give a boy the name of a counselor other than his own parent because most of our parent counselor want to avoid the possibility of being too hard or tooo easy on their own kid.

 

That being said, if the boy's father is gone for a couple months at a time for work AND is registered as an MBC for sailing, I would gladly encourage some time spent together on scouting skills.

 

The phone calls and anger may have been an over-the-top reaction, but I would let it go this time due to all the rest of the background. The boy may need for the parents to back off and let him grow up in many other areas, but this one seems to be the wrong battle to me.

 

(Opinions of a troop advancement chair and mom of two Eagles.)