POR contracts

[rdclements]

Hey Kudu: does this sound familiar?

 

A troop that I know well uses contracts for their leadership positions. I reminded the adult leadership that they each had signed a contract (application) to run the program as provided by BSA, and this isn't it. Of course I also pointed that out to the COR.

 

It turns out that my opinion is not relevant due to the fact that they are WB trained and I am not. That was when I became certain that I would never go to WB.

 

To sign up for an outing, a young man's parent fills out the Microsoft Excel workbook and emails it to a committee member who compiles the list of who is going on what trips.

 

They also have a 2 page behavior contract that they require a scout to sign before going to summer camp.

 

There are some good people in the unit, but I always carry a few airsick bags to their meetings - gotta be prepared.

[Twocubdad]

That's really good of you, RD, to take the time to go by and let these guys know what they're doing wrong. Maybe you could stop by our troop from time to time and let us know how we're coming up short.

[evmori]

Using POR contracts IS coming up short.

[qwazse]

Didn't hear anything in WB about POR contracts. Certainly our WB PL's haven't had to sign contracts. So, I'm not sure how WB factors in. Did these leaders tell you that that's what their WB troop did?

 

Maybe that paperwork will come out when we come back for the second WB weekend.

[Oak Tree]

"They also have a 2 page behavior contract that they require a scout to sign before going to summer camp."

 

Jamboree also had a similar contract. RD, if you could stop by National and tell them they aren't following the program, maybe that would help.

[shortridge]

Oak Tree,

 

I read the Jambo guide, and didn't see anywhere where a Scout was supposed to sign a behavior contract. I saw a very detailed "code of conduct," which could really have been condensed to one line - the first item, adhering to the Scout Oath and Law.

 

The rest of it was just a recitation of the basic rules - no alcohol, no gambling (?), no lasers or fireworks, no swearing (bet that rule was broken a few times), no stealing, following safety rules at events, no guns, no hazing, no bikes, skateboards or golf carts or ATVs (????).

 

Those items are standard in the summer camp leaders' guides I've read (except for no swearing or gambling) - so the adult leaders are responsible for communicating those rules to their Scouts. I suppose that the Jambo organizers didn't trust the contingent leaders to do the same, given all their other responsibilities.

 

(As a serious question - what Scout would bring a golf cart or ATV to a National Jamboree?)

[rdclements]

"That's really good of you, RD, to take the time to go by and let these guys know what they're doing wrong. Maybe you could stop by our troop from time to time and let us know how we're coming up short."

 

Yes, well I was one of the church's elders responsible for youth activities, so it was one of my responsibilities to discuss their program direction. If your unit is coming up short, I'm confident that you can find some help if you sincerely ask for it.

 

The best leaders that I have known are continually seeking improvement through honest feedback. Where WB comes in is the attitude it creates in some people. I know plenty of great scouters with beads. I also know plenty who believe that because they have reached the pinnacle of scouter training, they are omnipotent.

[qwazse]

Yep, everybody's a critic. But it takes a lot of work to find constructive critisizm. (E.g., "maybe you should be like this, but maybe this is not practical, how about starting here ...") After a while, it's just easier to adopt a my-way-or-the-highway attitude.

 

Inflated egos may gravitate toward WB, but I wouldn't blame WB for inflated egos. Beads or no beads, you'd bump into the same situation. (Well, at least I have.)

 

I've done the church elder gig. A lot of the time you're stuck being a rudder ... make small changes to turn a big ship. Press on, and keep a clean airsick back handy!

[Stosh]

I've been thinking about this thread a lot and came to a couple of questions concerning this issue.

 

Are POR contracts necessary because we have failed in our responsibility to develop real leadership in our boys?

 

Are POR contracts a last ditch effort to at least if they aren't going to lead at least follow?

 

The message of contracts has an underlying assumption that because we don't trust we need written and signed agreements.

 

Contracts are nothing more than adult "rules" by which youth must comply (follow) because any and all youth leadership endeavors have failed.

 

In the 40 years of working with youth in a variety of different environments with social dynamics, I have never used nor ever needed any sort of contracts with the youth. After all when a kid screws up, the last thing he takes into consideration is any contract that he might have signed. But it does give recourse for the adult to dish out punishment without having to deal with the problem, just send the boy away and one doesn't have to deal with it, it's in black and white.

 

It's kinda like the person who in a conflict situation in a group, instead of trying to work out the problem, merely digs up a copy of their bylaws, dusts them off, and starts quoting anything they can find to entrench their position.

 

It's always easier to quote chapter and verse than it is to negotiate any resolutions of problems.

 

Stosh

 

 

[Horizon]

I have seen contracts for kids in some sports, where they sign claiming that this is their #1 extra-curricular activity. They are not "enforced", but rather serve as a communications system from the team to the parents and youth. By signing a piece of paper, the youth is hopefully informed of the seriousness of the situation.

 

However, once the season starts, it is never brought up again.

 

My son had to sign papers for Jamboree regarding behaviour and the use of electronics, with my counter-signature that I understood that I would have to pay to have him brought home if he went overboard on anything. Again, it served as a focus of a conversation that we had. Then again, our conversation was boiled down to "follow the Oath and Law, and don't do anything that you KNOW will make the SM angry." Pretty easy.

[twoscouts]

I am a scout parent of two boys in a very strict, by the book, Troop. They definitely use the POR duty/objective sheets from the JLT kit, which on one hand is good because it give the scouts an idea of what is expected in a certain POR. However, these sheets can also be used in a very negative way. The adult leadership uses it as a weapon to block advancement. The scouts are given very little, if any, feedback during the POR period, either good or bad, yet at the end of the POR period are given a performance rating of only two options: fully performed or not-at-all. There is no middle "satisfactory but could use improvement" rating. And the ratings are not told to the scouts, they are kept in secret until its time for a scout to meet for his next SM conference, and only then do they find out that they received a negative rating and must wait for another POR period to come and go before requesting another SM conference. It's become very frustrating for the scouts, and as you can imagine, scout spirit within the troop is very low. There's got to be a middle ground between "winging it" in your POR responsibilities, and having to cross every t and dot every i. They also make the scouts fill out the sheets using the S.M.A.R.T method of performance, which is hard enough for adults to do in a corporation, and way above what is needed for boys.

[John-in-KC]

"The adult leadership uses it as a weapon to block advancement. The scouts are given very little, if any, feedback during the POR period, either good or bad, yet at the end of the POR period are given a performance rating of only two options: fully performed or not-at-all. There is no middle "satisfactory but could use improvement" rating. And the ratings are not told to the scouts, they are kept in secret until its time for a scout to meet for his next SM conference, and only then do they find out that they received a negative rating and must wait for another POR period to come and go before requesting another SM conference."

 

Yes, that's frustrating. I hope that you are a registered leader and have taken Youth Protection, Fast Start, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, and Troop Committee Challenge training.

 

Why, you ask?

 

Because then, you can approach the SM/CC over a friendly cup of coffee and say "Show me where what you do is in line with the BSA program, please. I cannot seem to find this in the Scoutmaster handbook."

 

Feedback is a gift

 

The youth members of your Troop deserve to know where they stand throughout the time they have a Troop duty. They may be working in Quadrant I of the leadership maturity model (Hi Direction, Low Support aka "Do this, then this, then this") or they may be in Quadrant II ("That was fantastic, now I need you to do this!").

 

No matter how you slice it, they need guidance and support, not "I've got a secret ... GOTCHA!!"

 

If you get something less than desirable, particularly if your son is denied advancement by the SM after tenure in a position, then you have options:

 

- You and your sons can look for another Troop.

 

- You can tell your sons to do better and suck it up.

 

- You can tell the committee chair: "If at his BOR my son is not advanced, on his behalf as my minor child, I will appeal your denial of advancement to the District Advancement Chairman." Scoutmasters, Committee Chairs, and especially COR's don't like to have District/Council looking at operating practices with a microscope. Sometimes, the request is enough to revisit the matter. CAUTION: This path can burn bridges. Be sure the matter is serious enough to pull the trigger on this option before doing so.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Stosh]

I don't use POR contracts and probably will never do it. My alternative to the problem is SMC and BOR's.

 

During my SMC's I always ask my boys what they have to brag about having held a POR since last advancement. If they have nothing to brag about, I have them advance on to the BOR without any ammunition in their hip pocket. I know my BOR people will ask such questions as: "How did you enjoy being PL (or whatever POR)?" If the boy has nothing to say, they recess the BOR until he does.

 

Works every time. It allows the boy to fail, but it also allows the boy to correct the problem on his own. Don't need a contract for that.

 

And so the boy doesn't have a clear understanding prior to taking on POR? TRAIN HIM IN HIS DUTIES! Now he knows what is necessary and if he does them, he could kill off 90% of his BOR bragging about his POR. If he doesn't do any of them, he's going to have the deer-in-the-headlight look when he gets to the BOR.

 

Is this borderline re-testing? No, it's an honest evaluation and an opportunity for the boy to take some well-earned pride in his accomplishments. It's all in the hands of the boy. It's more of a covenant he has with himself rather than a contract with the troop. Total ownership in the success and/or failure of the process.

 

Stosh

[evmori]

However, these sheets can also be used in a very negative way. The adult leadership uses it as a weapon to block advancement. The scouts are given very little, if any, feedback during the POR period, either good or bad, yet at the end of the POR period are given a performance rating of only two options: fully performed or not-at-all.

 

And this is a perfect example of why any type of contract or these type of sheets should not be used.

[Stosh]

It's rather ironic that the adults don't want to be evaluated on job performance (another thread) yet will turn right around and dump on the kids the very thing they despise. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Stosh