Scoutmaster options - Improperly accomplished merit badges

[Eagle92]

there are a few things to think about.

 

1) if someone under the age of 18 signed off on the card, then it is invalid. that's per national.

 

2) it appears that folks beleive that once you have the MB, you do not need to be retested, AND THAT IS WRONG IN SOME INSTANCES (caps for emphasis). While you cannot test the youth in order to give him the MB, that's IF signed by 18+ old person, nothing in any book or policy states that the scout cannot be retested in order to do a trip. In Safety Afloat, Skill Proficiency is a key element. Two of the slides I goggled stat that a scout must have proficiency in the MB skills. It does not, repeat NOT, state the MB. So even those with the MB need to demonstrate proficiency. Also it suggests a minimum of 3 hours of training and practice.

 

I know that when I went to Canada, I had 2 or three prep trips prior to actually going, all of which were mandatory. I had to demonstrate at all prep trips minimum MB proficiency, despite having the MB, and had to learn additional skills and demonstrate them.

 

I guess what I trying to say is that even if a scout has the MB, they need to prove those skills before going on a major trip.

[rdclements]

Lots of good feedback in this thread. We all know that some camps cut corners and as unit leaders we need to be ready to address any concerns with the camp program leadership.

 

When evaluating a skill, you could certainly have some who are very good at it and others who are only basically proficient.

 

However, there are no "minimal requirements" for merit badges. The scout either satisfied the requirement or not.

 

[Scoutfish]

Okay, let me restate what I meant when I said "minimal requirements".

 

There are ALWAYS minimal requirements. TRhere isn't a 3 out 4 best requirements. There are certain amount of requirem3enst that have to be met. Anythuing less is a failor "incomplete" as far as requirements are concerened.

 

In a MB situation, you have to do certain things. Such as wimming: You have to meet certain requirements to pass. The swimming MB does not say you have to be on par with Michael Phelps or anuy othetr Olympic swimmer. It does not say you have to be the fastest , coolest loking, or most like Aquaman type of swimmer.

 

It just lays out a certain amount of requirements that must be passed.

Tht is trhe minimum.

 

It really means that you can't say :" Since you are skinnier, it's harder for you to swim so you only have to do this many " ...while telling a bigger and more boyant person that: 'Since floating comes easier to you, you must do more of "X" to pass.

 

It also means that you don't say " Your backstroke looked pretty ugly , so It doesn't count."

 

I am saying that every MB or badge has a certain amount of requirements that must be met in order to pass or complete that badge. Anything less is below the minimum required .

[Basementdweller]

scoutfish

 

Got a summer camp story for you.....

 

Took the webelos to resident camp last week.

 

The BSA swimming test says "Swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: side, breast, trudgen, or crawl. Swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. "

 

The key is strong manner. IMO I only saw one of my scouts swim it in a Strong manner, 3 dog paddled the last lap including my son. The Lifeguard passed them all and I was concerned.

 

Sure everyone whipped the end of the rope, but could they do it again?

How about plant ID? Sure they could do it on the hike with the counciler but how about a week later????

 

I sat down with the list of requirements the camp said they completed and started putting them in the database. Wow, I must a been at a different camp, the requirement listed and what my scouts did was very different. I have emailed the Program Director with my concern. I understand that in cubs "doing your best" qualifys as completion.

 

Swimming is a thing that should never be skimped or cheated at. Potentially it could cost a scout his life.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Funny, in all of the years I have been involved with BSA, I have never seen a performance "range" for any requirements. I have never seen a "minimum", or "maximum", for requirements.

 

From my training, and experience, what I understand to be the BSA rule is - "No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

 

If the requirement sates - "Swim continuously for 150 yards using the following strokes in good form and in a strong manner: front crawl or trudgen for 25 yards, back crawl for 25 yards, sidestroke for 25 yards, breaststroke for 25 yards, and elementary backstroke for 50 yards."

 

Then THAT is what should be done.

 

No more. No Less.

 

Perhaps I have been confused, and looking at the wrong BSA paperwork?

 

Now, notice that BSA does NOT have a rule on what to do when folks don't follow BSA rules. The MBC's at Summer Camp are pretty much on their own. Yes, shocking as it may seem, there ARE bad MB Counselors. TELL THE CAMP PROGRAM DIRECTOR - and YES, I AM YELLING! These people are NOT all knowing. If you don't tell them their people are doing a bad job, how on earth are they supposed to know?

 

If you have waited until the "blue card" has been signed to question things - yes it is a done deal. They have earned the MB.

 

BUT, as folks here have pointed out, that is NOT the end of a boy's Scouting life! Just because he has earned the Swimming MB, that does not automatically exempt him from ever again having to prove he is a capable swimmer! He STILL has to take the BSA Swimmer test each Summer at camp. He STILL has to prove he is capable of SAFELY managing a canoe. He STILL has to PROVE he can meet the swimming requirements for whatever water activity it is he wants to do.

 

A Merit Badge is just that - a merit badge. It is NOT a Get Out Of Swimming Free card.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Get Outdoors]

We just returned from summer camp and I have some of the same issues....MBC's that are way too young to be signing off blue cards. It's great seeing these young men and women teaching but quite honestly I don't feel they have the experence to teach some of this stuff. Luckily most of the MB's in question were not the "big" ones like Swimming, First Aid, Citizenships. I guess we'll be spending 3 - 6 months reviewing what they should have learned at camp.

 

I had a boy tell me during the last days of camp he wouldn't be earning shotgun shooting since he didn't hit 49% for two rounds. (very little teaching on the range) He told me he only hit 4 out of 50. I get blue cards back from camp and his card is signed.

 

I will not be giving him the merit badge because 1) he didn't earn it 2) he didn't learn the skill and 3) he will feel really good when he does accomplish the challenge. What I will do is give him the tools to meet the requirement.

 

The way I see it, the merit badge is not complete until both the MBC AND the SM sign the blue card. In our troop, you either know it or you don't. No free passes.

[John-in-KC]

Get Outdoors: ABSOLUTELY WRONG, SIR.

 

Your first signature is your OK for him to begin the merit badge. The second signature is a contract with the boy: You have received the completed app, and are making a promise that you and the Committee will:

- Post the completion to an Advancement Report

- Submit the Advancement Report to your Council

- Buy the Merit Badge and the MB card

- Award the MB at a suitable ceremony.

 

In this case, though, the boy has come to you and said: I didn't meet the standard. He's being Trustworthy with you. IMNSHO, it's your turn to be Trustworthy, Loyal and Helpful by him:

- Find him a MB Counselor who will coach him, and who, understanding he's already spent some of his own luchre at camp to earn the MB, will help him do the additional shooting he needs at pro forma costs.

- Provide cover and support so the no 1/1 rule of YP is honored between this boy and his Counselor.

- HELP HIM honestly earn the badge.

 

Now, you also have hard evidence that your Camp Staff is not living up to their promise. It's time for that businesslike conversation between you and your COR. It's time for your COR to have that businesslike conversation with the Professional your SE has in charge over your Scout Camps. It's time for you to have a friendly cup for coffee with your District Advancement Chair, and ask him to invite the Council Advancement Chair to the coffeeshop.

 

Your Council let your unit and your youth down.

 

That said, again, I hope you were out in the field, looking at the activities in the Lodges, and commenting in real time to the Lodge Directors, the Camp PD, and if needed the Camp Director.

 

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Changing subjects:

 

Like many here, I've held a Red Cross WSI and a BSA Lifeguard certification. I have to agree with folks like Eagle92: The Swimming Merit Badge is not a permanent pass to the waterfont. Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat both require skills knowledge through the use of Ability Groups.

 

To the OP: Keep your youth swimming, challenge them to improve, and if you have doubts about their correct ability group per Safe Swim Defense, have them take the BSA Swim Test!

[Beavah]

Get Outdoors: ABSOLUTELY WRONG, SIR.

 

Nah, John-in-KC, I've been readin' your line of argument throughout this thread, and I have to disagree. I think you're gettin' it all wrong.

 

Scouting isn't about regulations and contracts. A blue card is most definitely not a contract with a boy, and it's improper to think of it that way. In fact, blue cards themselves are just an optional record-keeping tool, eh? They don't mean anything on their own.

 

Scouting is about helping young people to learn and grow. That and that alone is what should guide the Scoutmaster in how to handle the situation, and the BSA has mechanisms for allowing the Scoutmaster to do that. If a conscientious scoutmaster like joeracz or others discovers that a boy has been issued a completed merit badge form improperly, his job is to refuse it, and then help the boy find a better counselor so that the lad is able to really learn the skill.

 

Here's what the Scoutmaster or unit committee member is asked to sign on the Advancement Report Form:

 

I certify that the the following record of advancement is correct and that it meets the standards and requirements of the Boy Scouts of America

 

Yah, that makes it clear, eh? If it's da Scoutmaster's opinion the MBC didn't adhere to the standards and requirements, he must be trustworthy in filling out the advancement report, and therefore he must not submit the merit badge for credit. Period.

 

Now, I appreciate the advice to Scouters to offer feedback to the camp. That's good advice, but it's a different thing than honestly filling out advancement reports or doing what's right for the kid in question. It's not the Scoutmaster's job to fix the camp. Yah, sure, a Scoutmaster may optionally choose to give the camp feedback, but it's his choice, eh? It's the camp staff's job and the Scout Executive's and the camp commishs' job to monitor and improve the camp. Transferring that responsibility onto the units just isn't right or fair to the units that we are supposed to be providing services. The Scoutmaster's job is to do what's right for his CO, his unit, his boys, and that's a big enough responsibility.

 

So no, we don't really expect scoutmasters to monitor all of the programs at camp and catch and correct things on the fly. To expect that would be a complete abdication of our proper role as council scouters. We expect unit leaders to do their job and make sure that the scout gets a good program even if the camp lets 'em down. Then it's our job to deal with the camp. Show me a council scouter who makes a big deal about the SM stepping up and I'll show you a council scouter who doesn't understand his own responsibility and should probably go back to unit work. Besides, can yeh imagine how disruptive it would be if every SM followed da advice here and interrupted the young MB instructors every time they got something wrong? That approach just ain't courteous.

 

So in my not-so-humble opinion, joeracz as a unit leader should be honest and not approve the MB. The clear text of the requirements and what we teach at Camp School is that Swimming MB requires a strong, proper-form stroke, and the lad shouldn't be desperately struggling to finish. That's the requirement, and especially for bigger troops or adventure bases, we rely on Swimming MB to be "real" for safety purposes. It shouldn't be issued if it's being issued dishonestly.

 

It's disappointing that the camp staff reported the badge as complete, but as folks have pointed out, camp staffs are young, there are lots of kids to keep track of, and lots of pressure from campers, weaker unit leaders, and parents to "cave." A badly issued MB report might result from anything from a paperwork error to three different fellows named "John" that the counselor didn't keep track of. No matter what da reason, when the camp hasn't held up its end, the Scoutmaster is expected to step up to the plate and do what's right for the boy and the program.

 

Because he's given us his Oath, eh? "On my honor...."

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[shortridge]

Beavah,

 

I don't think John or anyone else has said that correcting problems with the camp program rests solely on the shoulders of the SM or other unit leaders. What he has said, and which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that the SM does have the responsibility to point out problems when he or she spots them. A good SM will get around to more program areas and see more things than will the CD or PD in an average week. Hate to say it, but it's true. That gives them a unique perspective, and a valuable one.

 

"Besides, can yeh imagine how disruptive it would be if every SM followed da advice here and interrupted the young MB instructors every time they got something wrong? That approach just ain't courteous."

 

First of all, there shouldn't be any "young MB instructors." Youth 17 and under can assist with instruction, but shouldn't be the primary teachers or counselors. That's the promise National (and every council) makes to the COs. So the SM should be able to talk adult-to-adult with the qualified MBC.

 

Secondly, even if you do attend a camp with underage MB instructors, it's simple enough to have a chat with the PD or CD or commissioner or area director, all of whom should be above 18. Certainly, butt in when there's a safety issue. Otherwise, you can wait until after class to bring up your question or concern.

 

... as folks have pointed out, camp staffs are young, there are lots of kids to keep track of, and lots of pressure from campers, weaker unit leaders, and parents to "cave." A badly issued MB report might result from anything from a paperwork error to three different fellows named "John" that the counselor didn't keep track of.

 

I'm sure it's not what you intended, but to me, this sounds like making excuses for a shoddy program. There are basic fixes for each of the items you list. If the camp staff is too young, hire older staffers. If there are too many kids, restrict the size of the class to a more manageable level. If there's pressure, ignore it and hold to your standards. If the staffer didn't keep track of things, he can be counseled to improve his recordkeeping.

 

Some might say it's impractical to do those things. I say it's delivering the promise. Don't take my money, offer a slipshod program and tell me it's the best you can do. That's the same as peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining. If you don't have the resources or staff to do the program properly, then don't do the program.

 

No matter what da reason, when the camp hasn't held up its end, the Scoutmaster is expected to step up to the plate and do what's right for the boy and the program.

 

And "what's right" should involve giving feedback. Without that step, the camp may very well continue on the same old path, assuming everything's fine because no one complained. Then it continues next year. And the year after that. And then it becomes the acceptable standard, "because that's the way we've always done it." And more and more Scouts suffer from a lousy program.

 

The gift of feedback takes a few minutes at most. It's hardly a huge burden.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've worked at summer camp. I've been one of those underage MBCs who illegally signed off on blue cards. I've taught some crappy classes - I shudder to recall the Basketry and Indian Lore classes I ran as a 14-year-old CIT. (And I also received the gift of feedback.) I know first-hand the limited resources that camps have to work with. But that's not an excuse for not offering the program that was promised.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Beavah]

Yah, shortridge, I agree with yeh on all of your points (though perhaps I'm so old that my definition of "young" is a bit different than yours ). But this thread wasn't about how those of us who are council scouters should work to do better with camps, eh?

 

This was about what a unit scouter should do when confronted with a situation where a lad got shortchanged.

 

I don't think the SM, the boy, or the unit is "locked in" to a poor MB experience just because some tired staffer pencil-whipped a report form. The badge should be refused.

 

You're completely right that shoddy program should not be excused. My only point was that in some cases mistakes get made or shoddy program happens, and then yeh have to deal with it.

 

And you're completely right that it's a help to the camp for a SM to give feedback in an appropriate way. But it ain't a requirement, and it shouldn't be an expectation. SMs have enough to do at camp, and they're paying us to handle the other stuff, eh? We're not paying them to troubleshoot program. Their feedback is a gift, it's not a responsibility. The responsibility is on the camp staff and the council folks to solicit feedback, and to do our own monitoring of program quality.

 

As for da rest, I reckon we all know that very few camps have the resources to pay adults to be the sole instructors for da bazillions of MBs issued each week, and few units would pay the price necessary to make that possible. Most councils struggle with this and make compromises. But being 18 or 21 doesn't magically make yeh competent or immune to mistakes or pressure, either .

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[John-in-KC]

Beavah,

 

First, at the level you and I volunteer at, Scouting is a business ... a big business. It's a non-profit, but make no mistake, it's a business. Each Council may be in and of itself a small business, but the National Council is big business.

 

The BSA mission is to sell its program and materials to franchisees. BSA puts quality control into its systems.

 

Quality control works both upwards and downwards. Professionals and Council/District level volunteers work with the chartered partners to see, as best they can (the charter agreement is based on voluntary compliance, with a few notable exceptions) to ensure units use the program pretty much as designed. That's why we have lots of training for unit serving volunteers, the three aims, the 8 methods, and on and on...

 

On the other hand, units serve minor children. Those kids cannot speak for themselves when they are ripped off. Someone has to speak for the children. That's where unit serving adult leadership: The Scoutmaster, the Committee Chair, and the Chartered Organization Representative, have a moral obligation to step up to the plate.

 

In this thread, we've been discussing two issues, in the context of a service provided by Local Councils: The Boy Scout Long Term camping experience.

 

The first issue is: Do Scout Camps provide quality instruction in the topics of merit badges? I think we both agree, too many Scout Camps are school under the trees with younger than normal teachers. That's not the point. The point is: Does the Camp provide enough quality skill or knowledge instruction that the consumer (the Scout) legitimately earns the badge? The corollary to that question is: What can a unit do about it when things go awry?

 

In this thread, the OP is at that point: Things went awry. Why did that happen? IMO, it happened for two reasons: The Camp failed to put on a quality program, and the unit failed the Scouts by not highlighting the disconnects while there was time to fix them.

 

Unit serving leadership is the first line of defense, for the youth, that a camp staff presents proper program, that meets the standards of BSA Requirements #33215. See something? Say something! It's easier to make changes at the point of failure, than it is to read a critique sheet and accept it. I've read camp critiques. They don't offer the training aid of seeing the error happen in real time.

 

The Scoutmaster is the principal program officer of a Troop. As Barry says, he's the Guardian. I use the term gatekeeper. They're not truly synonymous, but they get to the point: Youth and families are paying $150 - $300 depending on the Council for a week to 10 days at camp. The parents are expecting the kids to come back from camp with some form of recognition. I'd rather see the kid come home with an honest partial than a diluted Merit Badge.

 

The Scoutmaster has to have eyes and ears out in the Lodges. He has to know that his youth are getting the value they deserve.

 

That, kind Sir, is where I stand.

 

Why? Because of this little goody, found on page 26 of BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures #33088: A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been earned, provided the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge.

 

The second issue is what happens when a camp signs out a Merit Badge? The underage MB sign-outs? On their face, invalid. BSA says 18 years old is the floor, period.

 

Now, the adult sign-outs of improperly trained and tested MBs at camp? Adminstratively, they are valid. I know advancement chairs who'd say "tough" if confronted by an issue of an MB not awarded. It's easier to stop the process before it gets to the point of completion than it is to repair the damage.

 

Councils that allow camps to have substandard instruction and testing? Where were the quality controls? They need to be in two places: The unit leadership, as the consumer, looking in is one place. The Camp Visitation Team, as the accrediting agency of BSA, is the second place.

 

Councils which allow substandard training and testing of Merit Badges are pushing the envelope on the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (the Big Corporation): Article X, Clause 12 (p 17):

Examination in Camps

Clause 12.

a. In special instances, where Scouts are attending educational or similar institutions and/or camps which give an intensive Scouting program, said institutions and camps may, upon application, be authorized by the Corporation to give the prescribed examinations and pass Scouts in such manner and with such special conditions as the facts presented (as to the facilities and leadership of the institution or camp) may, in the judgment of the Corporation, warrant.

b. Upon the recommendation of the Corporation, authority may be granted annually for the above privileges to Scout camps or camps conducted by authorized representatives of the Boy Scouts of America that submit evidence of maintaining the program standards, provided their programs have been approved by the Corporation. No exception

shall be made to the time requirements to qualify for rank advancement or for the award of Eagle Palms.

 

Is the above an escape clause for units? Only if they know about it.

 

I will continue, as I serve my District by training MB Counselors, to insist Scoutmasters know and evaluate programs and Counselors. It's a check and a balance, the Scoutmaster is the guardian of the 8 Methods.

 

Finally, that we are having this conversation is proof of the quality control BSA has. We've talked about the "uniform police" in other threads. BSA doesn't invest much time or energy in quality control of wearing the uniform, it's 95% voluntary compliance. OTOH, BSA does expend considerable professional and volunteer time and energy looking at compliance with its advancement and recognition systems. The brand names of "Eagle Scout" and "Venturing Silver" seem to be considered worth protecting.(This message has been edited by John-in-Kc)

[Beavah]

Yah, lots there, John-in-KC. I wonder, if camps serve minor children, who serves the major children .

 

I think our view differs on da roles at this point:

 

In this thread, the OP is at that point: Things went awry. Why did that happen? IMO, it happened for two reasons: The Camp failed to put on a quality program, and the unit failed the Scouts by not highlighting the disconnects while there was time to fix them.

 

The SM at camp is busy enough dealing with homesick kids and this, that, or the other thing that it's unreasonable to expect most of 'em to make it out to observe and assess the program areas daily. And even if a SM runs about from program area to program area, he's not going to catch most of da mistakes.

 

That's not his job.. It just ain't the job of the customer to troubleshoot the service they're paying for. Now, a friendly customer might offer feedback, but that's a gift, not an obligation. A truly upset customer might demand a refund. But most customers most places either chalk it off to a bad day and work around the problem, or chalk it off to poor quality and choose not to return.

 

It's up to the camp to solicit feedback (from both the youth and the adults) and work to offer a strong program. That's not the job of the customer.

 

So what happens when a SM hits the end of the week and finds out a kid has been shortchanged? The SM should take care of the kid, not the camp. Most of the time, that's goin' to mean he or she finds the lad a real counselor so the boy really gets the full experience of the badge. Yah, sure, if there's time and it's not too disruptive, a lad might repeat part at camp, but that's not usually possible.

 

What it doesn't mean is giving the boy a badge he hasn't really earned. That would just be silly. Nothing in the rules, regulations, bylaws, or program guides says that the SM is expected to be a tom-fool nitwit and award a badge that wasn't earned. Program guidelines define the normal procedures. It's up to people of good will to handle things appropriately using their own good judgment when da normal procedures break down.

 

So that's :

 

Camp's job to maintain program quality, SM's option to help by giving feedback.

SM's job to do what's right for the boy.

 

Beavah

[John-in-KC]

Beavah,

 

You didn't get a cup of coffee from the Commissioner's cabin this morning? That's the service to the major children...

 

OK. I think we agree to respectfully disagree. The opinion I espouse is in part how I conduct my life: Something's wrong, point it out. I honestly believe it's a duty to offer feedback, especially when I am the consumer. When I'm the provider, my job is to offer the best product or service that I can.

 

Of course, there's always another option ... units stop looking for "school" camps, and start looking for places where the youth will have fun by the camps' very nature, and oh by the way, some recognition drops their way naturally. To be honest, the best camp experiences I had as a youth were when I was on a one week backpacking trip. I din't earn a single MB as an accumulation from the week, but I sure remember that trout we caught in the lake and cooked up ... and that was 40 years ago this very summer. I remember going to the range at Scout Camp not to earn a Merit Badge, but instead to learn to shoot, and to start the NRA youth recognition trail. I remember doing the mile swim during the warm part of the day, but I was in a mountain snowmelt fed reservoir.

[evmori]

Did we scare the original poster away?

 

Once a MB is signed off by a registered counselor, it's done deal.

[Basementdweller]

We have several scouts who only earn advancements at summer camp.

 

I remember going to camp to have fun, ya know I earned a couple of merit badges in the process.