another double dip question

[evmori]

I don't see why #6 can't be completed as a group project? What if the unit decides to make a dining room table and chairs?

[desertrat77]

I interpret "assistance" as someone (mom, dad, counselor) performing the requirements (in whole or in part) FOR the scout.

 

If several scouts are working together on a giant project, and they are all exhibiting the skills required of the MB, I don't view that as "assistance." They did the work, it just so happens their collective efforts built one item.

 

I view this in terms of outcome. For a strict interpretation of assistance, each scout would build something, on his own, that may be value. Or it was something that met the requirement and it goes in the closet till a future yard sale. The outcome? Scout gets his badge and learns a thing or two about carpentry.

 

Working together on a big project? Teamwork, camaraderie, sense of purpose, buiding something of value that will serve the community for quite a while? All while learning and displaying carpentery skills? Sounds like the very outcomes we are trying to teach scouts. And a good intro to Eagle Project 101.

 

[SSScout]

1) No power tools.

2) No adult help except to say "here're the plans".

3) I think a handicap ramp would make a lovely piece of furniture "on the home grounds". Donate it to the county fair and build it on THEIR "home grounds".

4) Make sure all the participating Scouts DEMONSTRATE the use of the listed tools. The older Scouts helping the younger Scouts. Don't bind granddad's 9 point crosscut saw in it's kerf by pushing too hard. Keep it straight. Let the saw do the work. I hope the saws have been recently sharpened (where can you get that done? THAT ought to be a requirement. "Know someone who knows how to sharpen a saw". )

5) It is a rare thing for ONE man to build a house. Let the cooperation and teamwork be an unwritten "requirement" of this badge, and let the pride of skill and accomplishment be an understood part of it.

6) When I first read this MB, I did not understand the idea of a "piece of furniture". Four 2x4s & a piece of plywood make a table. Is that meeeting the requirement? If the boy helps shingle the roof of a storage shed that he also helped build, is that a "piece of furniture"?

7) Build the ramp. They will come. Years later, the Scout can point at it and say "I helped build that. That's my nail." And then his son can repair it....

[Buffalo Skipper]

I am not trying to keep this off topic here. In fact I trying to specifically answere the question of whether or not this is double dipping.

 

If as ManyHats suggests that this project is a means of demonstrating proper tool use as specified in reqs 2 and 3, then there is no "project" (for the sake of the MB). The project exists as a stand alone activity, during which scouts demonstrate their ability to use tools. There is no double-dipping here. But the scout cannot be "required" by the counselor to participate in/complete the project as a means of completing requirements 2 and 3; that is adding to the requirements.

 

On the other hand, many here agree that the "ramp" would not qualify for req 6, then, again there is no double-dipping.

[John-in-KC]

I see that the Scout has to make a complete project on his own.

 

I do not see part of a group effort.

[evmori]

6. Make a simple article of furniture for practical use in the home or on the home grounds, finished in a workmanlike manner, all work to be done without assistance.

 

I don't take "without assistance" to mean "on your own". Another one of those gray areas that is left to the MB counselor to decide.

[RememberSchiff]

Without assistance means no help supplied.

 

The intent here is this is the scout's project to demonstrate his carpentry skills to his counselor just as vocational students do today with their teachers and as apprentices/journeymen have done with guild masters in days of yore.

 

I think the ramp would be a great service project, whether the scouts work equally or not, demonstrate skills or not.

 

Would I credit this for Carpentry req #6. Nope. My scouts had to draw simple plans and build well accordingly. Proper use of tools and materials. Dimensions true. Strong, square joints. Sanded, finished. Pride in workmanship. Historic concepts?

 

My experience has been that double-dipping leads to triple-dipping, etc.

 

The scouter.com webserver has be acting like a SEscouter.com ... not very accessible.

 

My $0.02

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

I do see the value of a group project, as you all described. Yet it only reinforces that this should not be one. Let me offer this perspective (typical of what I often see in scouts these days):

 

Adam, Bob and Chuck are working on a group project, together, say a coffee table. Adam is a little engineer with a strong personality and reasonable leadership potential. Bob is a real follower and a bit lazy. Chuck really doesn't want to take the MB, but mom and dad say that this is only offered until December and he needs to take it now. Adam designs the piece, and Bob contributes. Chuck participates but only offers unrealistic options. They begin marking and cutting and Chuck is really doing a poor job, which is frustrating Adam, who wants it to be just so; Bob just goes along with whatever Adam says. They assemble the table, but Adam does 75% of the work, Bob 20% and Chuck does 5%. They all turn in the project and the MBC accepts it. Adam is pleased because he knows he did a fine job on his project. Bob is happy because he got along well with Adam and Adam is satisifed. Chuck is glad it is finally over and he got the badge and his parents will be quiet about it.

 

This is typical of most MB "classes" I have observed, and one reason I really do not like "classes" settings that some troops, districts or councils organize. But I don't want to take this off-topic. I feel that in most group project settings, some scouts do too much and others far too little. In the end, it can take away from what all the scouts learn.