Calculating 4-Month or 6-Month Target date

[WmSprague]

A Scout must be First Class for a minimum of four months before advancing to Star and a minimum of six months at Star and Life to advance. Defining exactly what four (or six) months is my question. I have received many opinions but have found no definitive BSA clarification. I apologize if this reference is readily available but would be very appreciative to have this clarified.

 

In order to make Eagle before a Scout reaches eighteen, the Board of Review dates for some of my Scouts must be scheduled to the absolute minimum number of days. The consequence of an Eagle Application rejected for having a Board of Review date either too early (or too late) is too horrible to contemplate.

 

The consensus is to just add four (or six) to the beginning date month to arrive at the target date. For example 1/4/10 plus four months is 5/4/10. This does not work if the target date does not exist. For example 10/31/09 plus 4 months is 2/31/10. Since 2/31/10 is three days past the last day in February is the target date 3/3/10?

 

Another school of thought says that if the beginning date is the last day of the month than the target date is the last day of the month four (or six) months hence. So 10/31/09 plus four months is 2/28/10.

 

I have also heard that you add to the beginning date 122 days for four months and 183 days for six months. If I counted right, adding 122 days to 10/31/09 is 3/2/10.

 

So depending on which method above is used, four months past 10/31/09 is either 2/28/10, 3/2/10, or 3/3/10.

 

[nolesrule]

I don't believe there is any documentation on this issue anywhere.

 

But I would suggest that since the requirements are counting 4 or 6 months (note that it's not counting days), you only need to add 4 or 6 to the month. In the case that it would be the 31st, I think it'd be just fine to use the last day of the month, whether it's 28, 29, 30 or 31.

 

I don't know why you'd count 122 or 183 days. That seems arbitrary.

 

Naturally occurring 4-month length ranges from 120 to 123 days and 6-month length ranges from 181 to 184 days. And yet we don't concern ourselves with number of days when other parts of the year are involved in the requirements.

 

Keep it simple.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[artjrk]

You know, I was thinking about these same questions when the other thread was asking about doing a BoR a day early. It does make one wonder and I don't have a perfect answer for you. This is one reason we have established in our troop that all leadership terms start either on May 1 or Nov 1.

 

As to the problem in your troop where scouts must have BoR on exact days otherwise they won't be able to get to Eagle. A scout has 7+ years to get it all done. If he waits until the very last minute, its really NOT your problem. You can do what you can within reason, but...

[BrentAllen]

FWIW, TroopMaster uses months, not days. One of our Scouts just received Star on May 11. The program is counting 184 days for him to eligible for Life, which would be November 11. I would go with the requirement the way it is written - months, not days. 10/31/09 to 4/30/10 for 6 months. 10/31/09 to 2/28/10 for 4 months in a non-Leap Year calendar.

[OldGreyEagle]

From the BSA Website on Board of Review Training

 

"The Scout holds his new rank as of the date of the board of review. For ranks where a period of tenure is required, that period begins with the date of passing of the board of review for the previous rank"

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/BoardofReviewTraining.aspx

 

Sorta throws that wrench in on the concept of having the Board of Review today although the 4-6 month tenure isnt over for 1 week

 

So, if the BOR is on 1/2/10, then 4 months is 3/31/10. When we start counting days, we need to remember Beavah's advice to do what's best for the youth(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[BrentAllen]

Say what??

 

You are going to have to explain that "new math" to me. By my calculation, 4 months from 1/2/10 would be 5/2/10.

[acco40]

Count months? I'll tell you flat out that if a Scout has documentation that he earned Star on 2/23 and Life on 7/3 on his Eagle application, it will be rejected. Yes he was Star in six different months, February, March, April, May & July but not for a duration of six months.

[Twocubdad]

Short answer is that to be sure I would call the council registrar and ask. They have a really thick manual with all this stuff, but I suspect the real answer is what the computer rejects when they type in dates.

 

Longer answer is I would make it the boy's problem to solve. He needs to arrange Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review to meet the requirements. If a kid is that tight, there are all sorts of other problems, like is he expecting the Scoutmaster to come back from vacation to get his SMC on time, or is he asking the Board of Review to meet Christmas morning to make the schedule.

 

If the boy had legitimate issues for shaving this close, apply for an extension. If not, it's time for a lesson in living with the consequences of one's choices.

 

I will say we had one Scout several years ago who was on this sort of schedule. He had dropped out of another troop at Tenderfoot and joined our troop several years later at age 15 1/2. He had assumed he didn't have time to make Eagle, but an ASM figured he had only a few weeks to spare. The kid really busted his hump, stuck with it and made all the deadlines. Along the way he was one of the best SPLs we've had. It was a pleasure to work with the boy to make the schedule work.

[OldGreyEagle]

so you guys know I have never been accused of being a math whiz...

 

I hate when that happens

[nolesrule]

" Count months? I'll tell you flat out that if a Scout has documentation that he earned Star on 2/23 and Life on 7/3 on his Eagle application, it will be rejected. Yes he was Star in six different months, February, March, April, May & July but not for a duration of six months. "

 

I don't think that's what anyone meant by counting months.

[jhankins]

Not all boys have 7 years to complete the program advancement. Boys that didn't join scouts until later have to do some careful calculating to make sure they can do it.

 

Others have different priorities during their scouting tenure. One Eagle we've spoken to in boards-- his mom committed suicide after he received First Class; of course the young lad took a break! Another was removed from his first troop for bullying, but came back two years later ready to try again, and he's one the most impressive changed young men I've seen.

 

Other boys surely won't make it for whatever reason, but we should do our best to have them work the program for as long as they can to better instill the mission of the BSA.

[Stosh]

Somehow I get the feeling that often times we make too big of a technical issue out of something that is supposed to be quite easy.

 

Are we counting days or are we counting months? 4-month or 6-month means 1/15 means 5/15 is 4 months later. 7/15 is 6 months later. To count days when you're measuring months is not the intention. If your tenure includes a leap year, bummer. If your tenure has a February of 28 days, you get a break over those who don't have a February.

 

Get over it, it's just one day and that day you probably didn't do anything related to scouting except do your good turn and live the Scout Spirit.

 

If the scout has procrastinated to the point where his Eagle is dependent on counting days, then there's something seriously wrong with his leadership ability to plan accordingly. He's got 7 years to figure out how to get his Eagle. That should be sufficient amount of time.

 

For those who measure in days that's 2556 or 2557 days, depending on whether there's one or two leap years and if he joined up on his birthday. Otherwise you need to add the variance of whether or not he earned his AOL at 10 1/2 years of age and crossed over. Or maybe he joined after his 11th birthday then it would be less. Then you have to decide whether one starts counting on the day he crosses over, or the first meeting of the troop, or whether one goes by the date on the application. There's a lot of things one has to consider here....

 

There's got to be some easier way to deal with this, but maybe not.

 

Stosh

[gcnphkr]

Check with your council. There will be someone who checks each application before sending it to National. They will know exactly how to count dates.

 

Our council's instructions for the Eagle packet states: "It is BSA practice to assume all months have 30 days for calculationg(sic) rank advancement and leadership requirements".

[Beavah]

Our council's instructions for the Eagle packet states: "It is BSA practice to assume all months have 30 days for calculationg(sic) rank advancement and leadership requirements".

 

Yah, dat's a new one, but even with February in the mix it works out.

 

I've always seen and done 6/15 to 12/15. Six months. If the previous BOR was on June 15, the earliest the next one can be is December 15. Never had that rejected.

 

I wouldn't trust the 30 day thing without confirmation. Though it may actually be how ScoutNet computes it (who knows with that program! ), it still might flag when looked at by a human and create a problem.

 

Beavah

 

[WmSprague]

I just got off the phone with my Council Eagle Desk representative. Citing many years experience processing Eagle Applications, on the few occasions a date was rejected by the computer, he just adjusted the date a day or two until it accepted his entry. His view is that if the Eagle Applicant and his Advancement Chair, in good faith, were off a day or two on a Board of Review, he would not penalize the boy on a technicality.

 

He said he never really thought about how it actually calculated the dates - problems are so rare. Obviously the computer has an algorithm to calculate the proper period of time but he does not know what that is. As a rule, he uses the add-the-months-to-the-start-date rule for a quick check. The possibility of the target date being nonexistent never occurred to him.

 

So, what I learned from this is the Scout will not be penalized over a technicality, which is as it should be. I thank all for their comments. As always, I learn new insight and wisdom from others. I was hoping for a definitive answer from a BSA source but apparently there is none. My background is engineering and it is in my annoying nature to be meticulous. Sorry.