Yet another Paper Eagle

[yarrow]

I hope everyone realizes the esteem in which Eagles are held. Unfortunately from the inside I can see how incredibly easy it is to obtain. I would like to see an age requirement for all ranks. I have a very young boy zooming through the ranks and merit badges. Is he competant, yes, but I intend to stop him from becoming a "Paper Eagle". There is much to be earned from participation and multiple leadership opportunities, and surprize you young eagles........age. There are those who would argue that it is maturity not age, usually having earned an Eagle at 13 years, 2 months and 9 days, they will smuggly add. I think they would like an award to wear that says "Incredibly Young Eagle". Then all could say......"So when did you earn your "IYE" and vie for the youngest age?

A friend and advancement counselor for a small local troop is having her boy earn vast amounts of merit badges. She sets them up and drums him through them. He has also advanced quickly through the ranks, not hard to hold a leadership position when there are only 12 in the whole troop. I expect to see him and Eagle before the year is out most likely before he turns 13. Ready? Not by a long shot. Requirements checked off? Yeppers.

[POPCORN]

I agree with your arguement. Many years ago we had same situation. It was the Troop Committee that put a delay on it until scout was able to prove leadership ability beyond his project.

 

But there is a bigger concern I have had. As a scout I remember how heavy the phone was when it came time to call a counselor. In fact it was probably the only time my parents did not have to ask me to take out the garbage. This is one of the valuble aspect of the MB program. Is the scout needs to call an unknow or little known adult for help. (remeber youth protechtion) Many parents and troop leader by pass this "traumatic experiance" to save the scout embaressment, but they only do them a disservice.

 

All we can do in these cases is "Do Your Best" to make a true eagle by following thw scout law.

 

Good Luck

 

[Mike Long]

The Honor of all Eagles is being cheapened, not just by "paper Eagles" but by the BSA itself. The BSA has made requirements easier over the years, especially after the passing of my personal hero Green Bar Bill. As a matter of fact many district and council level scouters have on NUMEROUS occasions urged myself and other Scoutmasters publically to push boys to become Eagle by 13. So if you shake your head and wonder why there are so many boys with Eagle patches who aren't quite qualified to be Eagles the answer is because the BSA wants it that way. I earned my Eagle at 16 and it was a fight, I could not have earned Eagle any sooner. The BSA trys to create Eagles by 13 because of the attrition rate of boys over 13. The myth of "Perfume and Gasoline Syndrome" strikes again. Many operate from the "conventional wisdom" that boys WILL loose interest by middle school. That is why the BSA started the Venture program, to get older kids who are bored with their troop to stay on BSA enrollment logs. To make matters worse in an issue of Scouter I read that the Ranger award for Venture Scouts was designed to be harder than Eagle! Incredible! How dare they attempt to cheapen Eagle by creating a no-name award that no one cares about! It makes more sense to stregthen the Eagle, the symbol of the best of American youth for over 90 years than to replace it. The reason why older boys leave scouts is because the Troop does not do difficult trips and does not challenge their abilities. Older boys are supposed to be the leaders and to train younger Scouts. There is no reason why a troop can't put together 2 high adventure trips a year for the older boys. No only does it keep them involved, it gives the younger Scouts something to shoot for. but I digress...

 

Some suggestions to stop the creation of instant Eagles.

1. Evaluate leadership performance. Do not allow a boy to wear a leadership patch on his arm and call it good enough. Require the boy to give an accounting of what he did, what his duties were and how he carried them out. Ask him what the best and worst things were about his tenure and what he could do to improve his performance. In the real world we are all judged by our performance, it would be tragic for a boy to later "discover" that poor performance equals termination. If his performance is deemed to be inadequate, give the Scout a chance to prove himself.

2. Parents can sign off nothing for their own child. They may review and coach only. GEt the Scout to find a counselor like Popcorn suggested. If the parent is the only MB Counselor you have access to then get another parent to double check the scout on his work.

3. Require Eagle projects that truly challenge the Scout. Look at the service project requirements for Star and Life, both can be completed on a Saturday. Chances are that an Eagle Scout Project than can be completed in two weekends is not adequate. Painting a park bench on a Saturday is not a challenge for ANY Scout's abilities. Have your Eagle candidates approach the project as if he were a business. Research the project and produce a report. Have him: find out what it would cost to be professionally done, What materials and skills will be needed, how many people it will take, roughly how long will it take, how will he get his workers to the job site, will he feed his workers, set up time for the press to come out and report on the project, will there be an unveiling/opening day? By researching ALL aspects of the project our Scouts will be better prepared for the working world.

4. Older Scouts plan their own trips and work with an adult on arranging the logistics. My high adventure progrm is planned by the older boys, they tell me were they want to go, for how long, how we get there, what we do there, and what we will need when we are there. It is a incredibly liberating experience for older boys to truly run a trip.

5. Get your older boys to get involved with your cub pack. We have two den Chiefs and set aside two trips a year that we host the cubs and put on mini camporees just for them. Let you Eagle candidate be in charge of that.

 

The only way to cultivate maturity is to insist on responsibility. All you need to do is to discuss the problem openly and honestly with your committee, write up a set of guidelines and enforce them fairly. You can challenge your Scouts abilities and get them to demonstrate that he can put into practice all the badges he earned.

 

I completely disagree with age requirements for ranks, maturity is not a measure of age. It is a measure of experience. I have sat on Eagle boards of 18 year olds and wondered "Who passed this kid?" and proudly approved others that I was shocked to find out were 13. We should not limit to true achievers because of the paper candidate. Yes, those with age usually have more experience but not necessarily more maturity. If we challenge boys and get them to reach outside of their experience and teach them to always do more than what is required we will have create an Eagle. It is possible to become an Eagle "by the letter of the law" but it is our job as Scouters to create Eagles by the spirit of the law.

 

I'm sorry if my comments aboout the BSA upset anyone. I still believe in and support the BSA. But I still belive that we need to reinstate the older difficult requirements and make Eagle THE lofty goal for Scouts.

[smt75]

Ditto to he last remarks!!!

[SaginawBud]

In the last 25 years, I have seen the program be watered down for numerous reasons. National has to have a program they can sell to stay in existance. If the carrot is to be an eagle, then they gear the system to that.

I do believe that there are some individuals out there who will attempt to beat the system to have the boast of so many eagles produced under the leadership, but they are doing a severe disservice to those young men. These leaders are not following the oath "Do your Best". These adults are the ones that point to the numbers and equate them to a good program. Most are untrained.

If your Council has a strong training team, and the calaber of leadership within that team is of the highest standard, this problem should correct itself.

If you feel the problem is not being addressed, contact your Council Commissioner for a frank discussion. Each District should have an Advancement Chairperson that arranges for an Eagle Board of Review. If the standards are not being met, then maybe it can be addressed through these channels.

Remember, we only work here, the rules are set by the National Program Directors. If enough concern is voiced to National, they will listen, as money talks, membership is $$$$$. Their reason for employment is based on how many and how much.

[slontwovvy]

My troop, whether meant to be so or not, has added several "requirements" to the Eagle Scout badge. NO ONE in my troop gets Eagle under the age of 16, because as part of our program, you need to take a JLT course or be a counselor in training at a Boy Scout summer camp (neither of which occurs if you are under fourteen). Also, you must attend at least 3/4 of the meetings to be considered to advance a rank. Leadership does not carry over, so if you didn't show up for a month, you start anew. In addition, none of the projects are to be under 250 hours labor. Our troop has the best reputation of any in the county for this reason. We do our projects well (over and above working-grade) and they are always the kind of project you can point at twenty or so years down the line because they will still be there. Our troop also applies the JLT, 15-year-old policy to Order of the Arrow as well, and, sadly, our boys have been the oldest Ordeal members at our lodge's fall conference for many years. This summer, while on staff at a camp, there was a week where almost a quarter of camp got tapped out, and five of the boys were FIRST-YEAR-CAMPERS. Here's my few cents on the issue.

[Kevieemeal]

Ok, I may not be a paper/13 year old eagle, but i do believe that no scoutmaster can hold a scout back from earning what is rightfully his. I am 21, a eagle scout out of troop 100 in sioux city iowa, and while i am still a greenhorn in the ways of how the troop operates on the adult side, i do know that if the boy earns his eagle at the age of 13 then the troop is not challengeing him enough. I do agree with some of what mr. mike long has said (see above posting), i also disagree with some of it. For example i praise him on his 1st point, i will be bringing that home for my troop to look at as a possible solution to patch wearing leaders, but i do disagree with his 2nd statement: scouting is about bonding. If a boys parent wishes to be involved in what is son is doing then by all means let him sign off rank req. or MB's, as long as there is another scout travling along with his own son. As for his 3rd statement: I take personal offense too. The physical part of my eagle project was carried out in one day. This is not what measures the boys project, the planing, leading, communicating, organizing and controling the group, along with all the other 11 skills of leadership that are taught at JLT's and Woodbadge classes. Even if he fails to properly carry one of these out he still learns, if he is able to figure it out, possibly with a little help from a scoutmaster. I do praise Mr. mike long in his stance on not allowing age limits on ranks, and i completely agree with his statement on age dosent mean maturity.

My answer, from a fresh out of the ranks scout, keep them busy with leadership, and special opportunites just for them, not just high adventures, let them know often that the troop is grateful for their help and commitment.

Your friend in scouting

[scouts4me]

As a Unit Commissioner for a boy scout troop I have to disagree with slontwovvy in his troop's way of doing the Eagle "thing". I have to wonder if his troop is a boy run organization or is it leader run? The standards for Eagle are set by National NOT by the unit. To "shout" that no one gets Eagle before 16 is perhaps something that the advancement chairperson for your District should be wondering about and looking into. I wholeheartedly agree that 13 is far too young to get Eagle, whether the boy has done the requirements or not. I, in my experience as a scouter have not seen a scout yet show me that at 13 he is capable of displaying the qualities of an Eagle scout. Perhaps they are out there and I have not met them yet. Maybe there is a middle ground somewhere. I have seen like some, the boys lose interest after a certain age. This is unfortunate because scouting is such a fantastic experience and is something they will take with them wherever they go. I suggest that slontwovvy re-evaluate his troop program and re-adjust it before someone on a higher level does. IMHumbleO.

 

For kevieemeal, it sounds like you have gone from one side of the troop to the other. Good for you. You will find it challenging but rewarding. AFA merit badges goes, if my son needed me to be his merit badge counselor (and he might) I would request that he have a fellow scout take the merit badge at the same time. Often times we leaders get the "blame" for signing off badges and awards for our kids, and perhaps some do. I know that my kids earn everything they do under my eye! My oldest is currently working on his Eagle. He is astounded at the amount of time involved in it. Your physical part of the project took a day, perhaps you had a lot of help. As you mentioned, they are a learning experience also. We cannot be judgemental. Certainly every project was and is worthy, I hope, or they would not pass muster. These projects must pass the troop committee, the district advancement chair, the council and national. If they were not of value and worthy they wold not pass, I am sure.

[Mike Long]

I agree, give the kid what he rightfully earned.

 

In respose to Kevieemeal

As to point 2. Perhaps I did not explain myself very well on this point. All Scout functions REQUIRE the 2-deep method, this includes working on merit badges in my eyes. What I object to is one-on-one Parent-Scout advancement. Yes Parent-child bonding is a major aspect of Scouting, at no point did I state that it was not, but it must be done 2-deep. I also stated that if the only counselor available was a parent it would stand to reason that the parent needs to be the counselor. My position on this subject is very simple. By having a non-parent sign off or check the work, or at least a witness (2-deep or more) working together on the badge ect., the parent is absolved of any accusation of wrongdoing. I had SEVERAL situations a few years ago of parents signing off requirements that boys OBVIOUSLY didn't earn. It was a mess and it got very personal and Un-Scout like. By instituting this policy the problem has disapeared. Unfortunately I hold this view because I have seen the worst happen many times. The few bad apples spoil the basket.

 

As to 3. Once again, I'm not sure I explained myself very well. I was speaking of the project from initial concept to completion. The Physical part of a project is not the be all end all. The project in TOTALITY- all the planning, discussing, arranging, phone calls, delegating, ect. is ALL part of the project. The physical part of the project is a mere fraction of all the real work. Sure the physical part of your project took a Saturday, so what? Add in all the "pre-jobsite" hours and what do you get? As a matter of fact the physical part of a project is the least important part. The most important part of an Eagle project in my eyes is challenge. All the things that a boy has learned in Scouts is tested and challenged in the context of a project. Think about it, everything you learned was or should have been tested by your project. My problem is projects that are started and finished, from concept to completion, in a matter of days. I just don't see the challenge, unless it's a race against time. The bottom line is the project must be a real challenge to the Scout's abilities, and as long as the Scout meets the challenge, its a good project. Obviously, your project challenged you.

 

What really gets me riled up is that I have seen several instances of abuse on the trail to Eagle and I see a need to strongly encourage high standards and methods that protect Scouts and thier parents from allegations of abuse. What distresses me most is that I'm not an "old-timer" that has seen this over the course of a lifetime, I'm only 29! My father was my Scoutmaster and my Mom signed of some of my merit badges and we had the allegation cast on us too, even after a 3000 man-hour project, and I felt that they were the hardest counselors I ever had! The slightest allegation tarnishes a Scout's achievement. The problem is that blanket policies and grand proclamations don't cover all scenarios and frankly, strangle some Scouts. I believe that it goes without saying that Scouting is a case by case basis and what we do should be tailored to fit each case with the highest of standards in mind.

 

So to you Kevieemeal I personally apologize for tarnishing your achievement by my poorly thought out response.

 

 

 

[scouts4me]

RE: Mike Long & etal, scrolling to the bottom of this is quite difficult to reply properly, isn't it? lol But to be sure, we all need realize that these written words are just that. While we may think we have thought them through, like I did, they may not be as clear as we thought. Take mine. I am a trainer. The first thing I teach new leaders is, you guessed it, two deep. And better yet, if they can - three deep. My spouse and I are both registered BSA leaders, also merit badge counselors, so technically we could do merit badges with our sons. This would not be something I would want to do, however unless I had to. And then as I said earlier, I would ask him to have another scout take it, this other scout is witness to the fact that they both have earned the badge. Naturally the two-deep adults are there, I would never do it alone. I would not use my spouse as the second for two deep. I too have seen troops where I know that time after time the merit badges are coming right off the assembly line, so to speak. They are still here in the area. It cheapens the effect of the whole system. My youngest son is upset that he is "only" Second Class while boys who graduated from our pack at the same time to this other troop are already First Class. I am trying to help him uderstand that he is learning life-long skills, genuinely, are these other boys? You are right there.

 

Point three... A challenging project is what it's about. Our school system feels that the Eagle project is not challenging enough. They are using the outdated "outbased education" system. Each senior has to complete a project to graduate. They are disuading scouts from using their Eagle projects because they are not challenging enough. Get real. A kid last year built a gun for his senior, now that is a challenge (right) and what a blessing to know this kid can build a gun. I mean no disrespect to gun enthusiasts.

 

What riles me... I have to argee with you there. And it's a case by case thing. I am much rougher on my children than any other leaders, IMHO. But we (I) will always here the "your his parent thing". But what suits one child will obviously not suit another and that's what BSA is all about, meeting each boy's needs so he can be prepared for the future. IMHumbleO

 

In dealing with my troop, also my sons troop, I have the unique position of being a female Unit Commissioner. Here where I am from that is not quite as popular as in some more populated areas. So I have a difficult role to fill. I have done my job well, I think. I am eligible for my square knot, now to let the District Commissioner know this. Another... well conservative. I visit my unit monthly, they may think as a parent, and perhaps that's true but I have a keen eye and also am doing my job. I have many scouting jobs and like to think I do them all well. The boys work well with me and I have a good repor (sp) with them. And there is always three deep there you can believe that. lol Happy scouting.

[smt75]

I keep hearing everybody say that "National" has cheapened the Eagle rank by making it easier for boys to earn the Eagle rank. How specifically has National cheapened the requirements? How are they easier? What has changed since I earned my Eagle Rank over 30 years ago? The only thing that I have seen is that the requirement that a scout must have service to the troop for a year before he could be considered for Star rank. If my math is correct, adding 4 months for star, 6 months for life and 6 months for eagle adds up to 1 year and 4 months plus 1 year for First Class that gives you 2 years plus 4 months to earn Eagle rank. You could join Boy scouts at 10 1/2 years of age add that to 2 years and 4 months, you could physically earn before the age of 13. It was too hard to do that because of the lack of trained leaders both locally and through the council. I really don't understand what people mean when they say it has been cheapened. How? can someone please point out the specific changes other than removing the time limits on tenderfoot, second and first class? I don't see any major argument with that at all because other things have been added like attend 10 outings,add so many days for physical improvements and other things which cause scouts to take about a year to obtain first class. Can anyone point out all the major changes?

[Wiz458]

In reply to smt75,

30 years ago puts you into the 7th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, my era as well.

The required merit badges were Camping, Cooking, Cit in the Community, Cit in the Nation, Nature, Soil and Water Conservation (Conservation of Natural Resources after Dec. 1,1967), Personnal Fitness, First Aid, Swimming, Lifesaving, and Safety.

Notice the glaring lack of options!

I personaly hate to swim. But, I set my goal at Eagle and swam. Same with Lifesaving.

As I look back at my merit badge experiences, these were all chalanging merit badges taking several years to earn (remember when partials were only good for 6 months? If you didn't complete Swimming at summer camp you had to start all over next year).

 

Also, let me throw this out there.

On the front of every Blue Card it says Scout XYZ "is qualified to begin working for merit badge noted on the reverse side." Then it calls for a date and the UNIT LEADER's signiture. As Scoutmaster,if I do not feel that the Scout is ready for a merit badge I don't sign the card.

 

[troutmaster]

From my perspective as a pseudo historian, I would have to say that Eagle has technically become much harder to attain. A project has only been required since about 1970; and that is by far the most difficult requirement overall. Some scouts are buffaloed by certain merit badges, but these have remained similar in nature for the most part, though some have been replaced with more modern versions, or have come, gone, and come again.

 

While researching my troops early Eagles, I discovered that boys were not even registered as Eagle (or Star or Life)until about 1940. The rosters listed them simply as "First Class with merit badges". Technically, adults could earn Eagle up to just after WWII, though it was broadly discouraged almost from the outset. But earning the earlier ranks was much more difficult.There were more pioneering aspects, camping equipment was makeshift and crude, and signaling was a requirement until sometime in the 60's.

 

I truly feel that the biggest change is not in the requirements, but in the attitudes of scouts, parents, boards of review, and even the council offices. We have had at least 2 specific cases of council overriding a board's decision not to award the badge. In both cases the scout's parents complained and threatened law suit; suddenly there is a new board put together and gee, he now passes. But this happens at the lower ranks as well. Often no one is willing to hold the scouts to the full intent of the requirements. Often the SM refuses to not put a boy up for review, even when he has strong concerns about his "spirit". And of course we have the "Eagle mills" out there. No outside counselors; constant group merit badges. Yet, even with all these problems, the vast majority of the Eagles I have met in our council over the past 24 years are really good examples of scouting. There have always been exceptions; and most scouts recognize these, and do not have a lot of respect for them.

 

All of this really is a reflection of our society as a whole. The general malaise of attitudes that do not expect "the best"; only the minimum they can get by with. In my troop we have a quote that is a fixture at the top of our blackboard; "Live the twelve". That is what we, in our troop expect. If they "do their best" and "Live the twelve", everything else falls into place.

[scouts4me]

I don't really think that the rank of Eagle has been cheapened, particularly by National. I think perhaps the perception of it has become that way for the following reason. For instance, I believe many of us have mentioned here the "Eagle factories" or those that are the opposite, making them wait until they are much older, despite their abilities. To see troops time and again rolling out Eagles at a young age, makes a person wonder if the boy has earned it or if the committee earned it for the boy.

 

On the other hand, I live in a community that has respect for the Eagle scout. Many businesses realize the value of the rank. As a member of the District committee I have heard a few business men, also members of the DC, mention that they will hire Eagles any day over a person equally qualified for a job. The reason for this being that the Eagle scout has shown that he has "stick-to-it" in his blood and committment. The military also recognizes this and Eagles go in at a higher rank.

 

If/when my sons get Eagle, you can bet I will be "pleased as punch". I know they worked hard and did not slack off or get an easy ride.

[yarrow]

As a Brownie, Junior and Senior Leader in Girl Scouts as well as a Webelo Leader and Committee officer in Boy Scouts(over a period of years) I can tell you that the requirements for most of the badges are truely not that difficult. I have found with my girls and boys that, at least in our area, many of them have done a lot of the activities and projects BEFORE. It becomes just a process of repeating in many cases. The Cub activities are repeated at several levels (Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelo) as are the Girl Scout activities for Daisys, Brownies, and Juniors (not so much Cadettes and Seniors where the badges are structured differently).

In our generally affluent area, also near a large city, many opportunities are available to youth. A large number of the kids have been in after-school care or extracurriculars for years. These opportunities may not have been available to kids in the past decades. I find that many kids have just "been there done that". Also our school system in this area is quite good so a lot of items, even unusual ones, have been done before in school too. The Boy Scout Merit Badges and Junior Girl Scout badges are quite similar and not that difficult and, of course, many adults expectations, sadly, are not that high. The badges seem well suited to a 11-14 year old boys and way too easy for most 16-18 year olds. As the requirements don't change for older boys I am sure that the older boys are not that interested in "digging deeper" for the same awarded badge......I am sure they think, why bother. These may be some of the reasons why the younger boys are finishing Eagles earlier than in past generations........ esposure and opportunities currently available to our youth.

All the same I don't think most 13 years olds would meet my expectations, or my image, of an Eagle Scout. When I see a YOUNG Eagle in the paper I think .......um, humm, where's the pushy, or overachieving mom or dad behind that smiling face and how much of that was really the child's initiative,hard work and drive. Generally with older boys I find it easier to believe that the Eagle was EARNED.