New Definition of "ACTIVE"

[Source]

Its sad when a Scout and his parents are being forced to appeal to the Council because the SM, troop, and district refuse to accept the new definition of ACTIVE, even when it says (Units may not create their own definition of active; this is a national standard.) and the SM is still makes his own rules.

[John-in-KC]

In my neck of the woods, child labor laws prohibit (still) more than about 15 hours/wk for folks under 18.

 

If a kid really is working 30 hours a week, I think I might be asking "why?" In the current economic times, that level of effort might mean the young person is having to contribute to his family bottom line.

 

If there's one thing I've learned in the past few years, every situation is different, and every situation needs to be looked at given the facts on the ground.

 

Source, assuming you are the youth or the parent, I wish you well.

[Source]

I am not the youth or the parent, in fact we are not even in that troop anymore, my son and I left that troop for other reasons. We just stay in contact with some of the people the troop still.

 

[Beavah]

Its sad when a Scout and his parents are being forced to appeal to the Council because the SM, troop, and district refuse to accept the new definition of ACTIVE

 

Nah, it's normal. Dat's what the appeals process is for, eh?

 

What's sad is that National is tryin' to force an absurd definition of active down the throats of lots of good scouters who are spending an awful lot of time workin' on behalf of teachin' kids citizenship and responsibility. So we've set up these conflicts, eh?

 

Only leads to three possible outcomes. Weakening da program standards, losing adult leaders and units, or removing kids like the one you mention from da roster at recharter time rather than keepin' the door open for 'em.

 

Yeh can't force a volunteer to give his or her time to a lad who hasn't shown them the same courtesy. And I've seen good kids and families quit scouting when a lad was awarded what was perceived as a paper Eagle. "We thought it stood for something" was their comment on da way out the door. What we hold up to others as being our highest standard affects all our boys.

 

You don't get a Varsity Letter if yeh don't show up for practice, even if you are a 4.0 student, even if you are working 30 hours a week, even if yeh are first chair in da orchestra, even if you played da sport actively as a freshman 3 years ago.

 

Beavah

 

[RememberSchiff]

This problem goes away if

1. The BSA returns to separating leadership from advancement, i.e., no troop POR requirement for rank.

2. Lightens up on the program scheduling. No year-round/outing every month/FCFY nonsense/attendance mandates. By age 12, my son had been on more campouts, summer camps, and earned Camping mb than I had by 15, why? Give scouts the freedom and time to explore school activities, sports, jobs, volunteering, as well as scouting.

 

Back in my day, there were no troop POR requirements (and the requisite attendance requirements) for rank advancements. There was just a simple service requirement under Scout Spirit to do your share in helping home, school, community, and church - you were ACTIVE and INVOLVED in your greater community not indentured to your troop. Maybe you were a sports team captain, Chemistry League president, Student Council president, band musician, altar boy, worked a job, or a SPL or PL - all good. There was time for other important things producing a better rounded young man. The best and brightest kids - the A students, team captains, band members, school leaders were Eagles. Today? Rarely. Maybe they were Cub Scouts? Maybe.

 

Say when was the last time your scoutmaster asked to see report cards as mine had? I brought in a sorry report card to him and found myself being tutored in math by another scout - a future Princeton grad. He had no POR but earned Eagle. My math improved . Leadership and service isn't restricted to those with POR patches - help other people at all times...

 

My $0.02

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[Abel Magwitch]

Beavah, you nailed it completely.

[BrentAllen]

RememberSchiff,

Sounds like a burned out parent, more than a burned out Scout. I know lots of Scouts that participate in those things you mentioned, and are very active in Scouts. Participating in Scouting has not kept them from those other activities. I don't know when you were in Scouts, but in the early 70's there was a POR requirement for advancement. As a Scout, I played baseball and basketball, played in the school band, took piano lessons - lots of other activities. Which of those activities has stuck with me to today? Scouting, and the search for adventure that developed in Scouting.

 

Scouting has always been active. This is the goal for a Troop program from the 1938 printing of the SM HB:

 

Weekly or fortnightly Troop Meetings.

 

At least monthly Troop HIkes and Overnight Camps.

 

Multitudinous Patrol Meetings and Hikes.

 

At least one week's camp during the summer.

 

Compared to that, I'd say the Scout activity calendar of today's Scouts is relatively light.

[RememberSchiff]

BA

I was a scout in the 60's, used the 6th edition handbook. There were no POR requirements. Leadership and advancement were separate tracks. That still makes sense to me. Not all Eagles are leaders. Most Eagle projects were wholly your own labor then.

 

In the 60's, most troops in my area did not meet during the summer, other than a week for camp. Older scouts had jobs (house painting before the days of water-based paints some fun), and we all played baseball, some basketball. Jobs and baseball were American traditions before scouting was! Some families disappeared to the Jersey shore or Poconos all summer.

 

My son's troop has typically two or more weekend troop outdoor activities per month. There are also separate service weekends and fundraiser weekends during the year. He does get Christmas, Easter, and Mothers' Day off.

 

Understand my son does not attend all activities and since the troop schedule conflicts with OA, he is not in OA . Some activities are required and there is a minimum 75% attendance for POR rank requirement (troop rules). Overall far more attendance hours per month than I gave. None of this existed in my day. In his unit, those scouts who want to join a sports team, do robotics, etc. go inactive, some come back but most don't.

 

Strict attendance rules and over-scheduling is not scouting to me.

 

Another $0.02

 

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

RememberSchiff,

 

???

 

I remember Warrant Offices, vice the buzzword POR, being part of advancement to S-L-E...

 

and my youth tenure was 68-73.

[RememberSchiff]

John, you may be more right.

 

I don't recall Warrant Offices? There is no mention of that in my 6th edition, Mar 1963 handbook.

 

I dug out my old cards. I had a green Eagle Scout Scoreboard wallet card which appears to be from 1966, it does list

2. Troop officer for 6 months since becoming Life Scout.

 

So the leadership requirement must have been added after 1963.

 

I can now answer with certainty that my first mb was Firemanship

 

Refund $0.02

[BrentAllen]

The 1957 requirements for Eagle had leadership for 6 months as a requirement.

II. Scout Participation

While a Life Scout for a period of at least six months show to the satisfaction of your leaders that you:

a. Work actively as a leader in the meetings, outdoor activities and service projects of your Unit.

By this time the Scout or Explorer should have developed as a leader in his Unit and there should be no doubt as to his ability to lead in meetings, outdoor activities and service projects. You and others who know his leadership ability should be able to present evidence of his behalf.

 

If you wanted to make Eagle, you had to be a leader.

 

Warrant Troop Leaders were the SPL and JASM, in the 1938 text. In the 1957 SM HB, in the Junior Leader Recognition section, "warrants" were presented to PLs, SPL, Scribe, QM, Librarian, JASMs.

 

The 1957 requirements for "active":

1. Work atively in Patrol and Troop meetings, outdoor activities and service projects.

The Troop and Patrol records will show the boy's attendance. The testimony of the leaders involved, preferably given at a meeting of the Patrol Leaders' Council, will indicate how "actively" the boy participated. The Troop will set its own standards for "active participation."

 

My, we have come along way with the definition of "active" since then.

[RememberSchiff]

In the 1959, 6th edition 1st printing BSA handbook there is no formal "leader" requirement for Star, Life or Eagle.

Under Scout Teamwork requirements section:

"Accept and carry out responsibilities in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit." - could be a leader, could be a grunt, but you had to be a team player.

 

By the 6th printing in 1963, these changed

"...show to the satisfaction of your leaders that you -

work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects..."

 

Still no formal requirements that you hold an office or hold one for any period of time. You could earn Eagle back then without having held a formal troop office. Some lead games, planned the annual church service project, training classes without being a POR. Maybe today they would be called Troop Guides?

 

Another $0.02

[BrentAllen]

1965 Eagle requirements:

 

2. While a Life Scout, serve actively as a troop warrant officer (patrol leader, senior patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, junior assistant Scoutmaster, instructor, scribe, quartermaster, librarian, den chief) for a period of not less than 6 months.

 

1965 Life requirements:

Same as above, except for 3 months or carry out a SM-assigned project to help the troop.

 

1965 Star requirements:

Same as above, no time specified, followed by this text in italics:

 

The key word is "actively." A Scout must serve in the warrant office position long enough to prove that he is serving actively. For Star, the leadership of the troop shall decide what this length of warrant office service shall be.

 

I think it is safe to say formal leadership has been a part of advancement for at least the last 45 years.

[RememberSchiff]

Agreed. But back to my original point, as a result of that "active" troop leadership requirement for upper ranks, we lost potential Eagles who demonstrated their leadership in other ways in the community. Scouting is poorer for this change.

 

Compare your local high school classes 1965 and the upcoming 2010. Who in those graduating classes are Eagles Scouts and what are their other community, church, academic, athletic and artistic accomplishments or didn't they have the time.

 

Note there were more boy scouts in 1965 than today yet fewer Eagle scouts than today.

 

Another $0.02

 

 

[BrentAllen]

I still don't buy your argument. These are parts of the newspaper announcements for some local Eagles. They are pretty typical. I'd say these Eagles are pretty active in their Troop, school and community.

 

Michael joined Troop 477 in 2002 and has been an active member participating in many of the troops outdoor activities and service projects. He has held many troop leadership positions, including Senior Patrol Leader, and was chosen by his peers to be a member of Scouting's honor society, the "Order of the Arrow". One of the highlights for Michael was participating in a high adventure trip to Philmont Scout Ranchs newest program, Double-H High Adventure Base in Datil, New Mexico.

Michael is a senior at Chamblee High School where hes a member of the National Science Honor Society, Math team, and cross-country, swim, and track teams. He is also an active member in Chamblee First United Methodists Youth group as well as Young Life.

 

Mark joined Troop 477 in 2002 and has been an active member participating in many of the Troops outdoor activities and service projects. He has held many Troop leadership positions including Senior Patrol Leader, Scribe, Summer Camp SPL, Den Chief and Troop Guide. One of the highlights for Mark was participating in a high adventure backpacking trip at the Double-H High Adventure Base in Datil, New Mexico.

Mark is a senior at Chamblee Charter High School where he is a member of National Honor Society, CCHS Yearbook, Chamblee Crazies and the Varsity baseball team. He is an active member of Temple Emanu-El where he currently works in the Religious School office. After graduation, Mark will attend Emory University where he hopes to play baseball.

 

John has served as Senior Patrol Leader, Patrol Leader, and Troop Guide. Johns favorite experience in scouting was backpacking 70 miles over 12 days with 18 other scouts and adults from his Troop at Philmont Scout Reservation in Cimarron, New Mexico in 2003, where he served as one of the two crew chiefs. John also enjoyed the challenge backpacking for a week this summer with 19 scouts and adult leaders from the Troop at the Double H Ranch High Adventure Base in New Mexico, serving as navigator.

John is a senior at Wesleyan School, where he is a member of the National Honor Society, French Honor Society, co-captain of the Varsity Wrestling team, student government officer, and participant on a mission trip to Jamaica this year. John is a member of Dunwoody United Methodist Church, is active in its Youth Program, and participated in last years mission trip to Brazil.

 

Ben served as Assistant Senior Patrol Leader with the Troop. He is currently a member of Sea Scout Ship 477 / Venture Crew 477 and the Atlanta Sea Scout Sailing Team. In October of this year, Ben as skipper with Kenny Munn as crew, won the Southern Region Sea Scout Sailing Qualifier Regatta at Lake Lanier and have earned the right to represent Atlanta at the William I. Koch International Sea Scout Cup championship regatta which is also the national Sea Scout sailing championship.

During high school, Ben was a member of the Latin club and a member of the Math Honor Society (Mu Alpha Theta) and participated with the math competition team.