New Definition of "ACTIVE"

[evmori]

So, for all of you who did not understand registered+engaged by leadership = Active, you now have it. Enjoy sucking eggs.

 

Read it again John. The Scout now has some responsibility in this where before it was all on the leadership.

 

It's not perfect but it is better.

[OldGreyEagle]

Is doing "doin' as little as possible" meant to be another way of saying doing the minimum requirements is not enough? Because if you feel the current requirements for any rank is not stringent enough, then the answer is to change the requirments.

 

All the BSA expects from the scout is in the requirments, if we do not like those requirements we either seek to change them or live with them

 

Oh and by the way "and rackin' up MBs at the mill" seems to be a slam at merit badge "mills" and I thought we were supposed to respect and honor volunteers who give of their time to work with the youth and any slur towards their behavior and actions is unscoutlike.

[Hal_Crawford]

We had a scout a few years back who came to summer camp each summer but after reaching 1st class he rarely ever camped with the troop or attended meetings. He served as a Den Chief (his dad was the DL) from the time he earned 1C until he aged out. Based on that and merit badges earned at camp he earned Star and (if I recall) Life but never finished Eagle. He probably showed up enough to meet these new requirements. At about the time he aged out he delivered a full den of cross overs (including his younger brother), most of whom have remained active scouts by any definition. That was a surprise.

 

His brother camped a few times, attended summer camp and then disappeared without having earned Tenderfoot. He was dropped at the next recharter.

 

About a year ago at age 15 he returned and rejoined the troop. His old Den mates were all 1C, Star or Life and most were active in high adventure. They convinced him that what he really wanted to do was go on the summer trek. Of course he needed to be 1C. He spent the next six months leaning into the requirements with his buddies coaching, teaching and encouraging. Four weeks before the trek he earned Tenderfoot and Second Class. A week later he earned First Class. He did great on the trek and has been active ever since. I doubt that he will earn Eagle, advancement does not seem important to him but who knows? That could change as well.

 

Hal

 

 

[Beavah]

Is doing "doin' as little as possible" meant to be another way of saying doing the minimum requirements is not enough?

 

You betcha, if the minimum requirement is just to be registered and not kicked out of a position for bullying.

 

Takes higher expectations than that to teach character and values.

 

Should take higher expectations than that to earn awards and accolades.

 

I thought we were supposed to respect and honor volunteers who give of their time to work with the youth.

 

You betcha. These cases only come up when we are tryin' to override the judgment of the volunteers who are givin' their time and energy workin' with the youth, eh? When we're tryin' to micromanage what they think "active" should be in their unit to help kids grow and convey the values they want to teach.

 

To honor and respect volunteers, we let them decide. We don't try to hamstring 'em with this sort of laughable definition of "active." They know the kids and the values they are tryin' to teach, and how to reach the individual lad better than the Irving office does.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

"Is doing "doin' as little as possible" meant to be another way of saying doing the minimum requirements is not enough?"

 

"You betcha, if the minimum requirement is just to be registered and not kicked out of a position for bullying."

 

Oh, please !!!

 

There are a whole slew of requirements set forth to advance in the program. If you cannot teach "character and values" through the program, then imposing some hard-line "active" requirement isn't going to do it for you. Writing some attendance bylaw or otherwise forcing "active" doesn't teach anything, but it does show that somebody is trying to make up for a failure to motivate a boy from within.

[ScoutNut]

Ummm, where, exactly, does BSA state that a Scout can not be removed from a position for bullying?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So if a registered merit badge counselor says this scout earned this merit badge, we honor his/her decision and it doesn't matter if the venue is the counselor's home,(the scout had a buddy with him of course) a troop meeting, at summercamp or a merit badge day (mill?)

 

 

[Eagle92]

OGE

that's correct. If a registered MBC says a scout earned it and signs the paperwork, he earned it. That is why the SM decides which MBCs to send the scouts off too. Perfectly good example All I needed was First Aid MB for First Class rank back in the day. SM strongly advised me to wait 'till summer camp and use the MBC there as the guy had an extensive first aid background and really taught the course very well. On another occassion I got certified as a YMCA lifeguard, back when they still taught the "hand to hand combat" and had a letter signed by my instructor saying that the course met the reuirements, yada yada yada. Well he wasn't registered as a MBC and the MBC I was sent you basically gave me a skills checkoff.

 

Again once the MBC signs off, you have to accept it, BUT the SM gets ti send the scout to the MBC he approves.

[Abel Magwitch]

Webelos Badge, Requirement 2:

 

"Be an active member of your Webelos den for 3 months (Active means having good attendance, paying den dues, working on den projects)."

 

But being active for the Eagle badge means to be simply registered with your dues paid.

 

Being active in the Webelos program seems to have a different meaning than it does for the Boy Scout program. The word active becomes watered down in the Boy Scout program and no longer carries the typical webster's definition nor the definition of the Webelos program.

 

So when boys become older and have to decide between football practice (which the school and coach "require" a player to be an active participant in all the practices to remain on the team), an older Scout has to make a decision - to be active in Scouting by participating with the troop and being active for 6 months as a junior leader or the Scout can choose to not show up to meetings in order to fulfill the mandatory requirements set forth by the football team.

 

So what is an Eagle board to do? One of their jobs is to make sure that the Scout did what was required of him to earn the badge. And being active is one of the first requirements of the Eagle badge making it pretty important (at least in my opinion). And if the board finds the Scout was not actively participating in the troop, and deny the Scout his Eagle, the Scout can exercise his appeals and in every case I have witnessed, the Scout will get his Eagle approved by national. And national will not provide the reasons on how they reached their decision.

 

During the past few years, the national advancement task force (aka the national advancement committee) was asked to define active and they finally produced a definition which many disagree with.

 

But there is another active requirement that a Scout must meet to earn Eagle - the position of leadership. If a Scout is acting in the capacity of let's say the Senior Patrol Leader, but he never shows up to meetings and activities to perform his leadership duties, the troop can relieve the Scout from his leadership position and give it to another Scout who does actively participate with the troop. Then the "inactive" Scout will not be eligible for Eagle as he was relieved of his leadership position. And should that Scout turn 18 without being a junior leader for 6 months as a Life Scout, the Scout cannot make Eagle. And it was the Scout's choice to make.

 

Regardless of the new definition of active, the troop still has the option of relieving the Scout of his position of leadership if the Scout fails to perform his duties as a junior leader for 6 months while a Life Scout.

 

It truly is up to the Scout to decide which priority is more important to him - whether he decides to perform his duties as a junior leader for 6 months, or chooses to practice football instead of participating with the troop. He really can't do both.

 

That is how my council resolved the issue of active. And if the Scoutmaster chose not to relieve the Scout of his leadership position, the Scout will be considered active and pass his BOR.

 

Abel

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

whether he decides to perform his duties as a junior leader for 6 months

 

Yah, Abel, except that's not the requirement, eh?

 

National's interpretation of serve actively in a position of responsibility is "hold office". There's nothing in there about "perform his duties."

 

So he's active if he's registered. If he holds office for two months, then the SM removes him for doin' nothing, then he talks da SPL into appointing him bugler but he misses the next two monthly campouts and the SM removes him, then he whines and is made quartermaster with a strict set of expectations but no-shows again and the SM removes him... he has now fulfilled the requirements. He's held office for a total of 6 months, and he's been registered.

 

Besides, we don't remove boys who are strugglin', eh? That's not Scouting. We work with 'em, but we don't reward 'em until they succeed. So a good SM works with a boy who is tryin' to figure out how to be responsible in his position, but he doesn't reward the lad until responsibility is really demonstrated for 4 months, or 6 months. That's the Scouting program. We also don't remove lads that the other boys have elected. That's up to them, eh? It's how we teach citizenship. That's the Scouting program, too.

 

Shame folks sittin' on committees forget the Scoutin' program so easily.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah]

it does show that somebody is trying to make up for a failure to motivate a boy from within.

 

 

Yah, FScouter, in da BSA we use the Advancement Method, eh?

 

The entire Advancement Method is based on external motivation - motivating a lad from "without."

 

External motivation helps lads learn and grow. That's why we use it. I know a lot of lads who love to play soccer, but their coaches still have attendance requirements, eh? Love of a thing doesn't always imply discipline or commitment in a boy. Yeh can love your family but still avoid chores unless there are rules, eh?

 

We hope that eventually the habits will lead to a boy being motivated from within. Once a boy reaches that goal, advancement method is useless and can be dropped, like we drop it from Venturing. Internally motivated lads don't need external goalsettin' and rewards.

 

Until then, we have requirements and advancement. That's the Scoutin' program.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

"It's not like CUB SCOUTING where his age/grade will dictate his rank."

 

Scoutfish -

 

You may want to rethink that statement. If I remember my Cub days, age/grade determine what part of the program the Cub is working in. He then has the opportunity to earn the rank within that program.

[Scoutfish]

I have a question Beavah. I really mean I have a question and not a hidden agenda.

 

Without qouting you, I can pretty much say that you are about the quality of the program and put advancement at the bottom of your list of things that mean squat. That is to say,your vision of scouting is about the trip, not the destination.

 

And I agree with it. But if a scout does not do a single thing in his position, and he's given 2 other positions that he does nothing in...then to say he's met the requirements is absurd!

 

I'm not talking about a scout who isn't quite sure whatr to do, After being put in his 3rd POR,I'd assume somebosy would say something to him about his duties, If he isn't doing anything at all, he's just there for his next patch and working the system.

I bet we( meaning any of us) could find another passage from BSA that says he did not meet the requirements and therefor fail to be advanced.

 

I mean, I'm not saying lets truy to stop every scout for every indescression, but to not try to do anything is bassically embrassing a program directed at advancement.

[Twocubdad]

The absurdity, fish, is in national's stance that holding a position (or series of positions) for six months satisfies the requirement. Beavah explaination of the policy is, unfortunately, correct.

 

 

[Snow_White]

NE-IV-88,

 

It seems that in Cubs these days, third graders, for example, are "Bears", in a Bear den. They work on the requirements for earning the Bear rank badge, and are awarded the badge when they complete those requirements. However, no one considers them to not be a Bear until they have earned the rank. Thinking back to the old days, it may have been different then.

 

In Boy Scouts, a scout is not a "Tenderfoot" until he completes the requirements to earn the badge.

 

I think this is what Scoutfish was meaning to say.