BSA Uniform and advancement policy (copy and paste)

[Scoutfish]

WOW Calico..that almost scares me! LOL!You are absolutely correct!

 

See Beavah, I look at some names in here such as yours and OGE, SSS, Scoutnut, Calico, twocubdad and a few others,and listening to what you guys say, I get the feeling you all have around 29 years experience at the least,and some closer to maybe 40ish ton 50ish years . And not meaning any disrespect in any way, shape or form, I specifically get the impression of Wilford Brimly when I think of you and OGE. Again, not disrespecting you, but a compliment.

 

But then as I read through posts on a daily basis I see scout parents, scout leaders, masters , asst scout masters, Cub masters etc ..you get the point, posing questions.

 

Maybe they know the answer and just want confirmation. Maybe they are not sure what guidline or policy that their specific problem falls under. Maybe like me, they have no idea yet because with their limited experience...they never ran into that situation.

 

Anyway,Beavah, lots of great posts and questions. And you give your advice and usually , cite the reference as to why. A few various members also give their answers. Then OGE will give an entirely different answer based on the exact same guidlines or policy you gave.Then so will Eagle, evmori and a few others. All of you guys will give an entirely different answer.

 

Then a thread sometimes strays away from the original post because everybody is argueing what a particular rule means, what the spirit of the rule means and why it makes sense or is stupid.

 

Now, I have no issue with good FRIENDLY argueing. I'm a NASCAR fan. Arguing is in my blood! The fun friendly - it doesn't matter afterward - arguing.

I think it's actually good to have a freindly arguements .

 

 

But my dilima is this: After reading all the posts, all the arguing , and diagreeing....at the end of the day, I still have no idea what I would, should, or ought to do to stay withing guidlines or the rules.

 

And (no offense here) if you read my posts a little bit deeper when I talk about my son, you will sure see that I am that dad who will make sure my son does a minimum at least 50% of all work on any project. In prefer 90% , but sometimes that doesn't work out. PWD car spedifically.He decided what design.This year it was a German WWII light armored Scout vehicle. I cut it out. He clear coated, sanded, painted and attatched the weights to it. He actually wanted me to do the wheels since he didn't do so great last year. I am not the dad who will spend hours honing wheels and beveling hubs. We did not use any axle alligning tool or get out the micrometer like some dads have.

Our biggest high tech tools are a postal scale and a tube of graphite.

 

Pretty much, I want him to have fun even if he has the slowest car. I do not want an ultra competative kid who cries at night because he didn't place 1st in everything he does, and does not know how to handle defeat.

 

I teach him that being too competative can suck the true fun out of events.

 

Now getting back to the forums and posts,like I said, I have complete (maybe hinting on envy)respect for many of you in here. you guys are what I consider the "real world" experts: people who do it, live it, and breath Scouting. Not some corporate pencil pusher who's biggest outdoor experience was cutting the back yard.

 

But the only problem I have here is that when I ask what I should stick in a round hole...I get one answer saying if I use a big enough hammer,the square will fit, 6 or 7 various answers about sanding down an octogon, two saying only a circle is BSA approved and another saying that the whole purpose of the program is for scouts to whittle the square down to fit!

 

Then one post saying that shapes are not even G2SS recognized.

 

So that is me. I actually don't just want an answer. I like answewrs with example or at least citing the rule that says why, so that in the future, I know what I should do. And I don't know if you remember your early years, but I can read a rule and get a different meaning than you or the next guy. But experience tends to clarify what was meant. And that's why I ask: the collective experience that is in this site.

 

Well, gotta go,I am on the PWD staff. Can you imagine that? Only my second yesar (1st as a leader) and I'm helping run the PWD. Why? Because there are only so many who bother to help out!

 

You gentlemen have a great weekend!

[evmori]

Peer pressure comes in all different directions Scoutfish. You seem to only be considering one of this directions.

 

Keep patting yourself on the back Scoutfish!

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

Nope, no back patting here. But actually, you seem to be the one closing your mind here.

 

Okay,the original peer pressure mentioned was the peer pressure of not wearing a uniform. So I ask you: "Who's is exerting this pressure?"

 

Well, here's my answer: Not your fellow scouters, That would be just stupid!

 

Not any volunteer or career scout leaders, Committee members, or Co's. Can't imagine the very people who are running the programs would pressure any scout into not wearing a uniform.

 

Surely not your parents. They pretty much fork over the money and bought the uniform (most of the time) in the first place, If not,they at least have to alllow you to participate since minors can't legally sign up.

 

Teachers? Guidance counselers? Grand parents? Your best friends? I doubt it.

 

So who does that leave? We'll there is the GSA, but I figure they are too busy doing Girl Scout things than to be picking on boys.

 

So now, we have the same people who usuaaly exert peer pressure: The same kids who pressure you to do what they think is cool such as drink, smoke,or anything else that isn't the acepted norm in society.

 

Seriously now,,what other peer pressure groups are there? The "Lets just get straight syrup from the slushie machine, and you're a baby if you get ice!" ?

 

Now, I'm not saying that any one person is telling your scout to smoke a cigareet instead of wearing the uniform. But why would peer pressure against wearing the uniform be an acceptable reason to not wear it? If that pathetic reason is accepted, then I can't see anybody standing up against smoking, drugs and teen pregnacy.

 

Afterall, that stuff happens way more than kids getting bullied out of wearing a uniform!

 

But I do know where there IS peer pressure: Pressure from mom and dad to be a super star and be the kind of kid that all the neighbors on the block wish their kid was!

 

 

Pressure to be the scout who has the most merit badges, pins loops, or whatever.

 

Pressure to be the unit that goes camping at least 1 more time than the next unit, patrol, troop.

 

Pressure to be the scout who get more awards, holds more POR's spends more time in an elected position, etc..

 

Pressure to get your eagle at a younger age than the last eagle.

 

Pressure to bow down, submit to, and think that the other scouters know more BUT DON'T PROVE IT because they try to change the subject by insulting instead of giving a resonable arguement by saying stuff like: "Keep patting yourself on the back Scoutfish!"

 

 

You said there was peer pressure to not wear the uniform. What is that pressure and where does it come from? And why would you allow and condone it any more than the pressure to smoke, do drugs, skip school or steal?

 

I mean,I know you wouldn't allow the boys in your troop or den to look at porn or smoke cigarettes at a meeting no matter what the peer pressure was, So why allow them to not wear a uniform because of peer pressure?

[Snow_White]

I'm confused - not wearing a Scout uniform is now considered equally as "unscoutlike" as looking at porn and smoking at a den meeting?

[Beavah]

Yah, holysmoke ScoutFish! You're even more longwinded than Eamonn and me. We're goin' to lose our status. (BTW, this old Beavah still has more fur on top than Wilford Brimley ).

 

One of da things yeh figure out slowly is that each person here comes with their own perspective/history/baggage/philosophy, eh? CalicoPenn has had some experience with numbskull adults gettin' picky and gettin' in the way of deserving lads. So when he hears a question, he views it through that lens. He sees those numbskulls in his head, and will reliably come down hard on the side of the boy. That's a good thing, and a good perspective to share. Me, as one of those commissioner fellas who've worked with a bunch of units and councils and COs and such, I tend to try to support the unit leaders and committees in doin' what's best in the face of parent pressure and kid behaviors and disputes and all the rest. So I tend to try to calm folks down when they're gettin' all hot and bothered and offer "the other side of the story." So if someone says "blue" I might agree, but if they start yelling "BLUE FOR EVERYONE!" I start suggestin' there's merits to red. BrentAllen's a fellow with strong, straightforward expectations and values. Jblake is an enthusiastic get-it-done, make-it-work fellow. Both of 'em are runnin' their units very successfully but very differently than da grandfatherly and orderly OGE would have.

 

But if yeh put us all together, you get a pretty good cross-section of Scoutin'. That way yeh also have a pretty good chance of readin' something from someone that will help you do a better job for your kids. And don't let anything else be your focus, eh? As a unit volunteer, you work for your CO and you're there for the kids. Not for yourself. Not for us. Not for the BSA. We're all just here to provide service.

 

------

 

As to peer pressure and uniforms, I reckon you're just bein' a bit simplistic. In some cultures, like immigrant and liberal cultures in the U.S., uniforms are associated with bad things in the home country. There are some good parents who don't buy in. And there's some parents who don't buy in because of cost or perceived value.

 

I've known lots of very good, upstanding young people (includin' most of da Eagle Scouts at EBORs over the years) who think the current uniform is a negative. Yeh can't foib it off on "bad kids" who smoke or do drugs. The "good kids" that we want in Scouting for the most part think it's dorky/gay/little-kid stuff by the time they're in middle school if not before. BSA recognizes this and there are some moves afoot to make some big changes to try to address it. Until then, we have to be honest. In only a small percentage of units where adults have worked very, very hard at it is the current uniform something lads are "proud" of. And even then, odds are they aren't proud enough of it to wear it to school.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutNut]

"we have to be honest. In only a small percentage of units where adults have worked very, very hard at it is the current uniform something lads are "proud" of. And even then, odds are they aren't proud enough of it to wear it to school."

 

I don't think it is as simple as "not proud enough". It has more to do with the pluses and minuses to looking "different", and things that they can control. I also do not think it has anything to do with pressure to smoke, do drugs, or any other illegal thing. Wearing a Scout uniform is not illegal.

 

For Cubs, for many, wearing the uniform is new, fun, and sets them apart as someone special. This is especially true if the Cubs attend a private school where they wear a uniform every day. They stand out.

 

By the time they get to middle school, standing out is no longer such a rush. Lets face it kids can be cruel. There is no way that a kid (even the most self confident kid in the school) is going to invite teasing.

 

High school is an entirely different world. At this point, some kids like being different. They like standing out. But the way they stand out is not by wearing a uniform. Good grief, look at those ROTC kids! No way do they want to be associated with that! So what do they do? The declare their independent spirit by looking like every other Greaser, Punk, Skater, or Goth, around. These kids are not succumbing to peer pressure to do drugs and smoke. They are succumbing to peer pressure to "be themselves". Unfortunately it will be a few years yet before they realize just what that is.

 

Does all of this mean that these kids are "bad" Scouts because the wearing (or not wearing) of their Scout uniform is one of the few things they have control over in their young, hormonal, lives? Does this mean that they will turn to drugs, tobacco, and alcohol? Absolutely not!

 

Once my son started middle school he would have to be dressed at the point of a gun to wear his BSA uniform to school. My daughters GSUSA (no such animal as GSA!) Troop changed their meeting day/time just so that they did not have to wear their uniforms to school. As a matter of fact they pretty much stopped wearing it altogether unless it was an "official" Scout event of some kind.

 

Son discovered buddies in both middle and high school were Scouts. They were not shy, reticent, or ashamed to talk about Scouting. It just was not the top subject of lunch room conversation. They were usually discovered to be Scouts when a service project came up, or when they mentioned a fun trip in passing. Then it was - oh hey, you're a Scout, me too, unit #123 out of so and so. Then on to bigger, and more interesting things. The same was true for my daughter. They were both Scouts, and if you pried beneath the teen angst and attitude, you would find they were proud of their part in Scouting. They just did not see the need to announce it to the entire world (aka-their school).

 

They both stayed in their Scouting programs until they aged out. Son did not make it to Eagle. Daughter earned the Girl Scout Gold Award (and Silver), and is now a Lifetime GSUSA member, although she does not want to be active. Son stayed on for a while as an adult volunteer. I can see him being an active volunteer later on. He would enjoy taking the training to become a Shooting Sports Range Officer for camp.

 

Uniform is only ONE method. None of the methods are more important than any other. How the youth turns out is the important thing, and the reason we all got into this in the first place.

 

One last thing to consider.

 

When was the last time you wore your Scout uniform to work for the entire day?

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[evmori]

I'm not closed minded Scoutfish. All I am suggesting is the type of peer pressure you considered was only one type - the bad type. Not all peer pressure is bad.

[Scoutfish]

No,I don'tthink you arew close minded. I typed that for lack of a better word. I shouldn't have, so I take it back.

I'm just saying, you chess club,band geeks, and other students of that nature wouldn't make fun of the unifroms. Only the kids who also happen to make fun of you if you don't wearthe exact same jeans they do that their dad bought at the "everything is $500 " store.

 

Jeans are not the same as "THIER" jeans. For example: In hs, alot of us bought our Levi's brand jeans from Sears for say...$20 dollars. The snobbish kidsparents bought their from Belk's for $50. THos kids looked down on us because our jeans (which were the same ones mind you) were bought at an uncool store.

 

Now, I didn't care what others thought. I never fit into any one group or clique of kids. I could hang out with all of them no problem.

But I'd point out that I could buy 3 pairs of the exact same jeans (same brand/style and cut) for the price they paid for 1 pair. I basically told them they were stupid for paying 3 times as much for te same th9ing.

 

That was peer pressure to be ....well dumb actually, but I didn't succumb to it. I'd tell my scouts the samething! That was 21 years ago ..roughly about. Gues where those cool kids are? You don't know? Neither do I! Good thing I haven't changed who I was to suit some kids that I don't even see anymore.

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Nope, never even came close to saying that! I said we don't stand for our teens or kids to fall for peer pressure to drink, smoke or watch porn. So why should we say peer pressure in how you dress is ok?

Why would you fight against one type of peer pressure and turn a blind eye to another?

[Snow_White]

For me, it falls into the category of choosing your battles...

 

For the record, my pack (or the pack of which I am a member, if you prefer) has a pretty loose attitude toward uniforming. I am often annoyed with the way that scouts show up dressed for pack meetings, B&G, and outings. However, other pack leaders do not necessarily feel the way that I do. SO, I can bring it up over and over again, until I become that annoying person who is always harping about incorrect uniforming, or I can focus my energies on planning activities where the scouts have fun, maybe learn something, and get recognized for their achievements.

 

 

[Beavah]

I'm just saying, you chess club,band geeks, and other students of that nature wouldn't make fun of the unifroms.

 

Yah, I'm wonderin' if yeh ever actually talk to kids, eh? Or listen?

 

Just did an EBOR last month with a lad who was a consummate band geek and on the chess club and da science olympics or somesuch. He reported that all of his non-scout friends in those organizations made fun of the uniform and the little-kiddie stuff it represented. These same kids were cool with him makin' Eagle, mind. But when asked what we could do better to attract some of his band and chess and science friends to scouting, his first response was "drop the stupid uniform."

 

And for da record, his uniform was spit-and-polish, from one of the best-uniformed "uniform pride" troops in his district.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

I was beginning to wonder the same thing Beavah! From Scoutfishs' posts, it doesn't seem like it!!

[Eamonn]

" You're even more longwinded than Eamonn and me"

I represent that remark.

Ea.