Once Again - Uniforms and BOR

[nolesrule]

You could enforce them both by stating that a partial uniform is not "neat in appearance".

[evmori]

Brent,

 

Based on this

The Scout should be neat in his appearance; however, a uniform is not required. Local boards

of review may not make up their own rules about wearing a uniform.

I would say no to all you questions.

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

The answer "no" to my last question would contradict a "no" answer to the others.

 

[Local boards of review may not make up their own rules about wearing a uniform.]

If a board allowed a partial uniform, they WOULD be making up their OWN rules, that go against BSA Rules and Regs.

 

[Oak Tree]

Brent,

 

I'm with you on this one.

 

So, can an EBOR say either full complete uniform (as the Rules and Regs read), or no uniform at all? Yes

Can an Eagle Board refuse to meet with a Scout in his Scout shirt and blue jeans? Yes

The ARP&P that say a uniform isn't required and the R & R say you can't wear only a partial uniform. Do you enforce one, and not the other? No, you enforce both. Our district Eagle board of review says to either wear the full uniform, or come dressed as you would for a job interview.

 

[nolesrule]

"Our district Eagle board of review says to either wear the full uniform, or come dressed as you would for a job interview."

 

And that right there can be used to define "neat in appearance" without conflicting with the updated guideline. It basically states that if you aren't going to wear the full uniform, this is your alternative. While it doesn't make the uniform required, it does mean that a partial uniform is not an option as it may not be considered "neat in appearance".

[evmori]

Our district Eagle board of review says to either wear the full uniform, or come dressed as you would for a job interview.

 

Well, requiring a full uniform is adding to the requirements. And what type of job interview are we talking about? Flipping burgers at the food court or working in an office or digging ditches? The attire would be different for each.

 

If a Scout shows up for his EBOR in a pair of nice jeans with clean sneakers and a polo shirt on, that is neat in appearance.

[Scoutfish]

I agree with Evmori.

After each and every day... After each den meeting, pack meeting, scouting event. After each campout or Blue and Gold I attend...after going to anothetr training,,my views are changing.

 

BSA does not require a uniform. They may want you to wear the most com-plete uniform you can, and may want you to show as much pride in it as you can WHEN you do wear it... but I'd call neat in appearance : Any teenager who is wearing pants that are not torn up and stained , and his hair is combed and he isn't wearing a mustache of the pizza he had for lunch.

 

To be honest..I'd almost call that a miracle.

[Beavah]

Yah, I once heard about a fellow who dealt with a uniform-obsessed EBOR by handing the lad a Venturing application for his crew, having him fill it out on the spot, and then telling the board the boy was applying for Eagle from his Venturing crew, so they definitely could not require a uniform.

 

This stuff just gets silly, eh? Respect the leaders of the unit the lad came from, and respect the boy. If he shows up in his troop's uniform and that includes blue jeans, that's a matter for yeh to take up with the troop leadership, not a matter for you to raise with the boy.

 

Yeh raise issues of neatness and comportment with the lad if that's what you're seeing.

 

Still, I really dislike EBORs that spend much (any) time on the Methods. Eagle is a capstone award, eh? The time for the Methods is past. At an EBOR, yeh want to talk to a boy and see if we've been successful at the Aims of Scouting.

 

If you're wastin' time on uniform or badge retesting or any of that, you're really sellin' the program short. Spend your time listening to the boy, and figurin' out what he's taking away in terms of character, fitness, and citizenship.

 

Beavah

 

[BrentAllen]

Ed, Scoutfish,

Show me anywhere in the official BSA documents that authorizes a Scout to wear jeans with his uniform. Insisting that a Scout, if he is going to wear the uniform, wear it completely and correctly, IS ABIDING by the BSA Rules and Regs.

 

Scouters have an obligation to promote the wearing of the complete, correct uniform. Requiring the Scout to be in full uniform for the EBOR, if he wears it, is living up to this obligation.

 

OFFICIAL POLICY

The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

 

Go ahead, keep watering down the program until it won't mean anything. Whether it be PORs held without any work, OA flappers who never show up again after Ordeal but gladly wear the patch, MB & rank badges given out for just being present, older Scouts who never attend but somehow earn that Eagle, and Scouters, Scouts and parents who refuse to promote the correct wearing of the uniform, the Eagle badge is dying the death of a thousand cuts. I guess this isn't new, as I've run into many Scouters who wear the Eagle knot but leave you scratching your head, wondering how in the world did they ever earn it, and what kind of Troop did they come from. Maybe that Eagle badge isn't nearly as important as the numbers on his left sleeve.

[evmori]

Good rant Brent. The uniform is only ONE of the methods.

 

OFFICIAL POLICY

The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

 

I don't see the word require in that OFFICIAL POLICY do you Brent? Promote doesn't equal require. And if you feel allowing a Scout to wear the uniform shirt & not requiring the official pants is "watering down" the program, then I would say your focus is in the wrong place.

[BulldogBlitz]

I hear crowd noise...

 

great post BrentAllen. Sadly, I think there are a whole lot of scouts/scouters involved who don't know what the term "watering down" really means with respect to Eagle or Boy Scouts. It would seem that some are just happy that there are 5 scout-aged boys in a room that aren't on probation.

[Beavah]

Yah, BrentAllen, while I agree with yeh in principle, I'm afraid you're misquoting the Rules & Regulations.

 

What you're quoting as "Official Policy" is actually a philosophy statement in da Insignia Guide, which is actually a program guidebook and not a policy document.

 

The Rules & Regulations are a very different document, and they do not contain the policy which you describe, or any language of that sort.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

Brent,

I never said we changed any requirements. Especially since they don't exist. I only said we like to see the cubs dressed from the waist up.

 

I NEVER said we changed altered or made up requirements.

 

but I DID say that BSA does not require uniforms.

 

But I also stated that I personally will praise any scout who does wear the uniform correctly , while not admonishing or belittling any scout who does not.

 

Seems to me that EXACTLY fits: "The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions."

 

 

But while we are at it:

 

 

 

So, when did BSA authorize your troop to change the uniform reguirements? When did BSA authorize your troop to add to the advancement requirements?

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Scoutfish,

I know you are new to all this, but you need to get up to speed.

 

The BSA Rules and Regs say you can't change the uniform. If you tell the boys in your Den or Pack they only need to wear the uniform from the waist up, you have just changed the uniform. Surely, you can see that. And yes, the rules exist. Since you are in Cubs, I will focus on that program. Turn to the section in your Cub Leader Book on Uniforms and Insignia, page 12-11 in my copy. Under HOW TO WEAR THE UNIFORM, 3rd paragraph.

"Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform."

 

I don't think that can be much clearer. No waist up uniform, no blue jeans.

 

See page 12-1, UNIFORM POLICIES AND PROCEDURES

"All Cub Scout leaders should become familiar with the rules and regulations on uniforming so that they can set a good example for the boys."

 

Chapter 8, page 8-1 WHY WE HAVE POLICIES

"Generally, Cub Scouting is flexible. There are many different ways of managing a pack to fit the needs of its members. But ALTHOUGH THE PROGRAM IS FLEXIBLE, THE POLICIES ARE NOT. ALL ASPECTS OF CUB SCOUTING AND ITS ACTIVITIES MUST COMPLY WITH THE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES. (emphasis NOT added).

All leaders agree to uphold the policies of the BSA when they sign the Adult Application for registraion."

 

From your comments, I'm guessing you were never in Scouts as a youth. In order to sit for a BOR, the Scout needs his book. The members of the BOR check the book to see that all the requirements are signed off as completed. We had Scouts showing up at meetings for their BOR without their books. So, the PLC added the book to uniforming FOR OUR TROOP HONOR PATROL COMPETITION. We didn't change any requirement for advancement, only for scoring for an internal Troop competition. The Scout has to have his book for his BOR regardless of whether we count it towards uniforming in the Honor Patrol competition.

 

You better think hard about Wood Badge. Full uniform is required. I'd recommend waiting a year or two, so you can get up to speed on the program.

[BrentAllen]

Beavah,

I didn't misquote anything. I copied the text right out of the Insignia Guide. Anyone can read it, on page 1. And it is NOT just a program book; it contains and is built on the Rules and Regs.