Once Again - Uniforms and BOR

[SMT224]

While evmori and others may be technically correct, the uniform is part of the Boy Scout culture, and for the most part an expected element of the experience.

 

I think teaching Scouts to look their best for an important meeting like a BOR is good for the boys and helps prepare them for job interviews and similar meetings.

 

Our Troop wears the full Class A uniform (sans sash) September - May and our Troop t-shirt June - August. Depending on circumstances, all of us will sometimes show up in jeans and the tan shirt, but 90% of the time we wear the tan shirt with Scout pants, often with a Scout belt & sox. Because the uniform is part of our Troop culture, all the Scouts know that the expectation for any BOR at any time is a complete uniform.

 

So it really does depend on the Troop and how the uniform integrates into their culture. For our Troop, requiring a full uniform for a BOR is not an added requirement - it's just the way it is.

 

[Beavah]

So it really does depend on the Troop and how the uniform integrates into their culture. For our Troop, requiring a full uniform for a BOR is not an added requirement - it's just the way it is.

 

Yah, and dat's the right way to do it, eh?

 

But in evry's unit, it sounds like "the way it is" is a bit different. In that case, the BOR is not an appropriate place to be ambushing kids to try to change it. Yeh have to change the unit culture and practice first.

 

I would always hold a BOR if da Scoutmaster said a lad was ready for one. If the Scoutmaster feels the boy has met the expectations, who is a part-time parent volunteer (or a district volunteer) to say the lad doesn't deserve a few minutes of their time?

 

What the lad is wearing might come up in that conversation.

 

Yeh might find out he's never thought about it because that's not how the troop runs. In that case you move on to other things, pass the boy but have a conversation with the SM on improving uniforming.

 

Yeh might find out that the reason he's wearin' an old tattered uniform is that he was ironing his new one right before the meetin' and didn't realize that the iron would melt the nylon.

 

Yeh might find out that he doesn't give a horse's tail for the uniform, and that will lead you to discussions of scout spirit. Yeh still may conclude that his Scout Spirit is just great, or yeh may decide that the uniformin' is just a small part of an overall spirit issue and choose to defer his rank advancement for a bit.

 

But yeh have the BOR. The Scoutmaster sent him, and yeh owe respect and courtesy to the Scoutmaster.

 

Beavah

 

[emb021]

"So it really does depend on the Troop and how the uniform integrates into their culture. For our Troop, requiring a full uniform for a BOR is not an added requirement - it's just the way it is."

 

It was true for my old troop as a youth & boy scout leader- BOR were done at meetings. Boys were expected to be at meetings, hence boys would be in full uniform at BOR. A non issue. (we never required the bringing of sashes, books yes, but again they were expected to bring them to meetings).

 

EBOR is a different kettle of fish, as those are done at a separate time/place from meetings, but most make it clear that either a uniform or dressing nicely (business casual at least) is expected.

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

If I were CC of this Troop, the first thing I would do is stand in front of all the parents, Scouts, Scout Leaders, Commitee Members and make a show of tearing the by-laws in half.

 

Troops don't need by-laws. When it comes to running the program, every thing a Troop needs is available in the official Boy Scout Literature. The problem with by-laws is that if they conflict with the policies, procedures and standards of the BSA, a Unit will defer to the by-laws, which they made up, in the very mistaken belief that they know better that the BSA.

 

The Boy Scouts may be a uniformed organization, but the BSA does not require anyone - let me repeat - does not require ANYONE - to own and wear a uniform. They strongly encourage it, and uniformed Units are very sharp looking indeed, but it is not REQUIRED. By Boy Scout of America standards, a boy could become a Tiger, move through Cub Scouts, crossover into Boy Scouts, and then go on to earn Eagle Scout without ever once put on a uniform. Should that be common? No - that should be very rare - but, it is still allowable under the standards of the BSA.

 

I'm always wary of Troops that have "by-laws" that require a full uniform, with sash, as part of the Board of Review. I have never heard anyone adequately explain why they must have a special "by-law" telling Scouts they must wear a full uniform at their BOR. To me, this by-law suggests that the Troop is just fine with a Scout NOT wearing a full uniform at any time other than a BOR. I've never seen a "by-law" that says a Scout must be in full uniform at all Scout meetings, which would have the same effect.

 

As for this SPL - yes I agree - at the very least, the shirt should have had his rank and POR patches sewn on, and have been presentable. But, if the Scoutmaster is modeling jeans and Scout Shirt, then that should be good enough for the BOR. If the Committee wants the Troop to be a fully uniformed Troop, then they need to meet with the Scoutmaster to express those expectations, and express that he needs to set a proper example.

 

 

[evmori]

While evmori and others may be technically correct, the uniform is part of the Boy Scout culture, and for the most part an expected element of the experience.

 

Expected and required are not synonyms. There is nothing wrong with the uniform being expected.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

from the OP:

 

"The SPL's mother was very upset and demanded to see the bylaws of the troop that specify the troop's proper uniform. She was shown the bylaws that state that for Class A uniforms, the Scout should wear the official BSA pants or other similar olive green pants (camouflage pants are not acceptable). BTW, this was my first time that I has seen the bylaws!"

 

Calico, it looks like the reference to the by-laws was to determine WHAT this particular troops proper uniform was, not whether it was actually required for the BOR. While the official "field uniform" is defined in the U&IG, there are some options (such as hat and necker) that would be appropriate for inclusion in a troop level document, such as by-laws. Personally I'd rather see those things be set by the PLC, but maybe the PLC wrote the by-laws.

 

I agree that requiring that the scout be in full uni before the BOR will talk to him is adding to the requirements, but as others have stated or implied, being out of uniform at a BOR makes demonstrating Scout Spirit a bit more difficult.

 

Regards,

 

DWS

 

[Oak Tree]

trainerlady,

 

We've hashed through a lot of this recently. You can see some of my feelings/reasoning on this thread:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=259258&p=1 so I don't want to re-do all of it here, but I'll comment on your points.

 

And let me re-iterate, I have nothing against those who want to encourage the full uniform. I've contemplated doing so myself, and I always wear the full uniform. But I don't think your analogies are really accurate.

 

You write:

The BSA is a uniformed organization! No argument on that.

Not sometimes, not when it's convenient, not just from the waist up. Well, as Bill Clinton said, it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If you look at a Scout troop on a camping trip, you can see that the BSA is not always uniformed. So it is indeed 'sometimes' uniformed. If you mean that National always states that the uniform is not just from the waist up, then yes, that's what they state. But if you look at a Scout camp, you can see that the great majority of troops (around here, anyway) are indeed uniformed from the waist up. You may not like it, but that is how it actually is.

 

Football players wear it all, so do baseball, hockey and soccer players. Ever seen half dressed football player? IF you don't dress you don't play. This is only true for games. The majority of the time they spend on a team, players are practicing, and they don't wear the uniforms then (typically). The uniform has a primary use on sports teams, which is to tell one team from another, and to display an individual number so that referees can identify particular players. That primary use does not exist in Scouts. Also, BSA has lots of opportunities to enforce that policy if they wanted to, and they don't. They could say "You can't come to summer camp without a full uniform", or "you can't have a BoR without a full uniform", but they don't. Why should a troop enforce things that National doesn't?

 

Let's take it a step further ever seen a half dressed McDonald's employee, a half dressed nurse, firefighter or EMT? IF your job says you wear this, that and the other thing for a uniform you wear it or you're fired. That's true. But these are different from Scouts in lots of ways. First, these people are getting paid by the organization, rather than paying the organization. Second, BSA specifically says that you can't get fired from BSA for not wearing the uniform. Third, one of the primary reasons that these people wear the uniform is so that the public can identify them, but that would not be true for Scouts at a troop meeting or a camping trip.

 

One thing they do have in common is that the organization prefers to have sharp, full uniforms as a way of building their brand identity. And BSA does this, too. You can't be on Boys Life in a half-uniform. You can't go to jamboree in a half-uniform. But the rest of the time, National doesn't seem to care much. In fact, you personally appear to care much more than they do.

 

What's wrong with instilling this in our youth? Not every worker that wears a uniform gets it paid for by their employer. Most don't get that luxury/perk. Nothing's necessarily wrong with instilling this in our youth. But BSA as a whole does not do so.

 

If you aren't using this method how many more are you sidestepping, glossing over or forgetting? Sigh, I hate this argument. I'm emphasizing the methods that I find most important to achieve the aims for my troop. Just as others do.

 

State the expectations, make them well known, and follow through on the expectations. I agree, this is how to make it happen. But right now, those are not my expectations, and regardless of what BSA puts in print, in practice they don't expect fully uniformed Scouts either.

 

You will ultimately be a stronger unit and have better members for it. I remain unconvinced of this point. Our unit has experienced excellent growth and excellent retention, and I find it unlikely that we would be doing "better" as a unit if we required/expected the full uniform, and I'm really dubious about the claim that we would have "better" members. But it is easy to throw anecdotes out on both sides.

 

I just don't care enough about the issue to enforce things that National and my council don't bother to enforce.

 

[CalicoPenn]

I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on by-laws, but I will say this, if your Troop needs a by-law in order to let Scouts and their parents know what neckerchief the Scouts should wear, the Troop has problems well beyond neckerchiefs.

[Eagle92]

Cal,

It's a young Pack, and from what I'm gathering, the policies and by-laws came about b/c the CO wanted them. To be honest they are out-of day as theycover both the pack and troop, crew isn't mentioned and they have been around for 2 years now.

 

Fortunately we have a very good CO. Only problem I have with them is that the COR is a challenge to get a hold of at times as he travels out of the country with work a lot . they are VERY supportive of scouting and the units.

[Mafaking]

 

There are always By-laws within a troop its just that some troops have not codified them. When a SM pulls a scout aside and tells him he needs to show more leadership as the SPL by wearing the uniform, that's a governing policy of the SM's. Its not written down but its troop policy even though BSA does not require it.

 

I think too often the inturpetion of rules, designed to cover all situations across the nation are taken to an extreme. The BSA guideline of not requiring a uniform were design for hardship cases where the family can not aford the cost of the uniform. Not because some teenager was too lazy to grab his pants out of the clothes dryer before he went to scouting.

 

Written down or not Good call on the part of the BOR.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Maybe it's me, or the influence of my troop that I was in, but I WANTED to be in full uniform like everyone else. I scrimped and saved, used birthday and Christmas money to buy my uniform. Yes it took me 3 years, i also had to pay for my own trips, but in the meantime I wore green surplus store pants to try and be like everyone else.

 

Nowadays unless you are going to NYLT, jambo, or summer camp staff it seams as if most folks don't give a darn about a complete uniform. And even then I've seen folks I know have 2-3 uniforms who still won't wear a complete uniform.

[Scoutfish]

I would like to think that a uniform wouldn't be a consideration of more than 1% of the entire scout. I'd like to think all scouts would be judged on their inner attitude.

 

But having said that, if a scout is going to wear his uniform, he ought to wear it correctly.

 

At our den(s) field trip (all Bear dens went) last Monday at a fire station, my son was the only one who had his class A shirt tucked in. The only one.

 

Now, the fact that the shirts weren't tucked in didn't bother me so much as the fact that nobody's parents asked or told them to tuck them in. And realistically, we are talking Cubs here: Little two legged containers of obnoxious energy!. I really wouldn't expect those shirts to stay in very long anyways.

 

My point? Not wearing a uniform isn't nearly as bad as wearing your uniform wrong, halfway or imncompletely. At least in MY opinion.

 

Pride, and attention to detail and maturity should make you want to wear it right!

[evmori]

I agree with CalicoPenn on Troop By-Laws that mirror what the BSA already has in place. I do see a place for by-laws that define meeting times, when CoH are held, dues, and the like.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I have very strong opinions on uniforms (I'll get to the BOR/Uniform in a minute). I wear my uniform (class a) on every appropriate occasion. Since I earned my troop neckerchief, I have never worn my troop uniform with an open without a neckerchief. On two occasions in the past 7 years (both as Cub Scout leader), I have worn non-BSA socks. I took steps to see that would never happen again. I set the example for my scouts (cubs and boy scouts), always.

 

Before I stepped up as SM, I could expect at most 50% in a uniform shirt and I would have been surprised to have seen 2 scouts wearing scout pants; none would wear a neckerchief or socks. Over the next 6 months when I operated as the defacto SM before being "sworn in," I made it very clear to the scouts what my exact uniform expectations were. I did not have the scouts conduct uniform inspections; it would have been pointless. There was a core of older scouts who I knew would never buy into my uniforming expectations. One as a life scout was MC for an ECOH and showed up in old torn tan shorts and flipflops, and he was not particularly out of place in the troop. I knew that as long as these 5 or 6 scouts were active, the rest of the troop would not buy into 100% uniforming. After the last of these scouts finished his tenure as SPL (and a last hurrah! of a campout) the rest of this corps mostly dropped of the face of the earth, and the remaining scouts began wearing uniforms regularly. These days we usually get 90-100% of scouts in shirts and pants, and 75% in a neckerchief and socks. Now, we have uniform inspections once a month, with the goal of 75% of each patrol to be in a complete uniform. We have met it for the past 3 months.

 

Scouts keep up with scouts on uniform, and they correct each other when they forget a neckerchief or belt. I rarely make a uniform comment anymore. Two years ago, BORs were occasionally postponed for scouts not showing up in a complete uniform; when they went off, a scout often had to borrow a uniform part from another scout beforehand. Now, no reminder is given and we have not had to "put off" any BOR, as it has not become an issue.

 

Uniforming is a matter of pride. If a troop makes uniforming a priority, the scout will make it a priority, as we have demonstrated. Now if only we can make that much progress in the "Patrol Method" area over the next year, we will be very close to where I untimately want the troop to be....(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[FScouter]

Proof once again that a problem is not solved by writing a bylaw.