Once Again - Uniforms and BOR

[evmori]

The Insignia Guide isn't policy, it's a guide hence the name.

 

The Scout Handbook isn't a uniform part. Never was never has been.

[evmori]

From the Rules and Regs.

 

Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation.

 

1. No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee.

 

Are adult volunteers Scouting officials? I would say no. Based on that, if a SM of a Troop only wants the Scouts to wear the uniform shirt, I would say he has that option.

[BrentAllen]

Congratulations, Ed! You just won the Most Ridiculous Interpretation of the Rules & Regs EVER Award!!!

 

I'm sure you are correct, and that is why that option is described so well in the SM HB and the BS HB. NOT!!

 

SM HB, Chapter 15, The Uniform and Insignia, pg. 159: "No alterations of, or additions to, the official uniform may be made by any Scout, leader, or Scouting official without permission from the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

Give me a break! You know, the BSA really doesn't need any wanna-be lawyers misinterpreting the Rules and Regs to the detriment of the program. Please find something else to do.

[evmori]

Not really Brent. The Rules & Regs state any BSA official. A SM isn't a BSA official. The Uniform & Insignia Guide is a guide.

 

Chapter 15 of the SM Handbook also states Do not wear the uniform while selling a commercial product or service, even for Scout fundraising purposes. Now if the unit gets permission from their Council Executive Board, (see the Unit Money Earning Project form) the unit is permitted to wear the uniform while fundraising.

 

Which is correct?

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

First of all let me say that I generally agree with the sentiment that there is no such thing as a partial uniform, either you are in (full) uniform down to your socks or you are out of uniform.

 

That said the only problem I see with enforcing the rules and regs section cited above is that it effectively eliminates the so called Class B uniform. If a scout uniform shirt with blue jeans or other non-uniform pants is against the rules, then so is uniform pants with a non-uniform shirt (even if it's a scouting related T shirt) unless National has blessed such a configuration.

 

Now, I know the "class B" is generally only used "in the field" and not for meetings, COH and BORs, but are we sending a mixed message when we allow scouts to break the rules when we think it's appropriate but enforce them rigorously on other occaisions?

 

Regards

DWS

(whose Tiger Cob son refuses to wear scout socks or a neckerchief)

 

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

No where, not in a single BSA document, will you find any text giving Troops the option of wearing jeans or other pants with the official uniform. The BSA HB, the SM HB and the Rules and Regs make this so clear, even a blind man can see it! Your most tortured, twisted, illogical reading of the text can't even begin to authorize what you suggest. Again, the BSA doesn't need you and your ridiculous interpretations - go join the local croquet or badmitten club. I'm sure they could use your expertise.

 

DWS,

You will notice the cited R & R sates "the official uniforms, as described in the official publications." The Activity uniform is clearly described in the official publications - the BS HB and the SM HB. No problem there.

[evmori]

Brent,

 

I understand what you are saying but there is a contradiction between the Rules and Regs and other publications. And when there is a contradiction, I go with the Rules and Regs.

[Scoutfish]

Bret...

 

 

I DO wear the full uniform in it's entirety. Even the offical socks that nobody can see .

 

But as far as being up to speed... Who's speed are we talking?

 

Your's?

 

I don't think so!

 

You adamantly keep telling everybody that no matter what under any circumstances can anybody except BSA add to or change the uniform. No if's and's or but's about it! PERIOD!

But then keep saying how you require scouts to wear the uniform for BOR and EBOR and that the book is part of that uniform. I called you out on it and you turned away and challenged me over blue jeans.

 

 

[evmori]

Brent,

 

1st you post

 

Our SPL was ready for his SM conference and BOR last week. He was wearing his uniform, but didn't have his book. In our Troop, you have to have your Handbook to be in uniform. No book, no BOR.

 

then

 

SM HB, Chapter 15, The Uniform and Insignia, pg. 159: "No alterations of, or additions to, the official uniform may be made by any Scout, leader, or Scouting official without permission from the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

and

 

Interesting that the new text doesn't address those who are in only a partial uniform. The Rules and Regs say no alteration or additions may be made.

 

and

 

No where, not in a single BSA document, will you find any text giving Troops the option of wearing jeans or other pants with the official uniform. The BSA HB, the SM HB and the Rules and Regs make this so clear, even a blind man can see it! Your most tortured, twisted, illogical reading of the text can't even begin to authorize what you suggest.

 

Guess what you criticize others for is OK for your Unit.

 

Where in ANY BSA publication does it state the Boy Scout Handbook is an official uniform part?

[BrentAllen]

Scoutfish and Ed,

Can you read? I posted the answer, but I guess I'll have to answer again. Maybe this time I will type slower so you can understand.

 

In order to sit for a BOR, the Scout needs his book. The members of the BOR check the book to see that all the requirements are signed off as completed. We had Scouts showing up at meetings for their BOR without their books. So, the PLC added the book to uniforming FOR OUR TROOP HONOR PATROL COMPETITION. We didn't change any requirement for advancement, only for scoring for an internal Troop competition. The Scout has to have his book for his BOR regardless of whether we count it towards uniforming in the Honor Patrol competition, so the board can see that all requirements are signed off as completed.

 

If you still can't understand the above, then look at it this way - For the Honor Patrol Competition, to get maximum points, the Scouts must be in full uniform. To get maximum points, they need to have their BS HB with them. To get maximum points, they need to have 100% attendance at meetings and campouts. The book is just a scoring component in the Honor Patrol competition.

 

Scoutfish, I know you are just a Guppie right now regarding your Scouting experience, so you have a lot to learn. Ed, how did your Troop conduct BORs if a Scout didn't have his book with him? How did they verify the Scout had completed all the requirements? How did they sign off that the BOR had been completed, if the Scout didn't have his book with him?

[Stosh]

While there is only one BSA uniform there are many optional points, the necker and the hat/cap. That is a troop option. But then there's the red numbers vs. the green, etc.

 

Add to that, even without altering the original BSA uniform there can and often times have troop carried expectations, i.e. handbooks and staffs.

 

While neither of these are part of the actual uniform, there is a tradition that may go with them. It used to be patrol leaders had whistles, but that tradition no longer applies. Early literature indicated that even when the boy was not in uniform, wearing of the whistle identified his position in the troop/patrol. Does it have to be a BSA belt or can it be a Philmont belt? Do the hats have to match or can they be some caps, some hats, etc.? Can one patrol wear a hat and another wear caps? If they wear the expedition hat do they wear the 1" First Class emblem or the universal circular emblem? Can they personalize their hats with a feather or Philmont brand?

 

If a troop can decide on neckers, do they all have to match or can each patrol have a necker of their own? Can they have a troop necker when they travel and do BOR's and a second necker when they do patrol activities?

 

Is a scout in uniform if his pants are a Walmart knockoff that looks really close but aren't really BSA uniform pants?

 

Even if one starts with just the basic uniform, problems arise. These "fine tuning" issues off the basic uniform will always arouse controversy, but when one cannot even come up to the minimum expectations, i.e. Hawaiian shorts or athletic sweat pants, others may have a reason to comment.

 

Last month my two Eagle candidates went into their EBOR wearing full uniform with socks, belts, neckers, etc. One of the two bought a brand new centennial uniform just for the occasion, which was not what he normally wore at troop activities. Both carried their handbook in their left hand and a staff in their right. The panel asked about the staff when the first boy came in and he said it was part of the uniform in our troop. When the second boy came in, they didn't question the staff, but they did recognize and comment that they had a second boy from Troop ## doing a EBOR.

 

We are a full-uniform troop. But with our boys wearing no hats/caps, garrison caps, baseball caps, expedition hats and campaign hats, the troop does not stand out as "uniform". Patrols can have neckers of differing colors, but must also carry a troop necker, and some of the boys tend to "forget" them a lot, too. So, again the troop does not stand out as "uniform." Our older boys tend to wear the red epaulets/numerals and the younger boys the green, the troop does not stand out as "uniform". Two of the boys wear the older all green uniform, but it's a BSA uniform. But if the boy is carrying a 6' staff with a hook in the one end, even if he's in blue jeans and t-shirt, people know he's from Troop ##.

 

To a certain extent, if for any reason a uniform or some "part" of the uniform (i.e. necker, hat, staff) can create a sense of pride, maybe it would be a good thing to encourage. Right now for many, the issue of "pride" can be summed up in showing up for the meeting with the uniform shirt wadded into a ball, quickly put on before flags, only to be taken off and wadded up as soon as closing flags are over.

 

It takes time to develop that pride, but when COH, BOR and EBOR rolls around, no one in the troop has to mention or remind anyone of the expectations on uniform for the occasion. We move forward inch by inch at the blazing speed of a snail, but we're getting there.

 

Stosh

 

 

[evmori]

Brent,

 

So when you posted

 

In our Troop, you have to have your Handbook to be in uniform.

 

that was incorrect?

 

When I was involved at the unit level, if a Scout didn't have his handbook, we didn't send him packing. We had his advancement records in front of us and held the BOR. If the Scout passed, he was asked to bring his handbook to the next meeting so it could be signed. We never turned a Scout away from a BOR because he didn't have his handbook PLUS we never failed a Scout because he didn't have his handbook. And just as a friendly reminder, the handbook isn't required, either.

[BrentAllen]

Well, Ed, to be our in Troop, a Scout needs a handbook. We use it to record his advancement, so without it, the Scout can't advance. The knowledge and instructions for advancement, camping, the Oath and Law - its all in the book. All 26 of our Scouts have their own book. How many of your Scouts didn't own a BS HB?

 

I guess we are just a bunch of mean, old men. The Scout knows he is supposed to have his book with him for a BOR, but he forgets it and has to wait a week. I guess when any of your Scouts forgot anything, you were right there to give them a replacement and make things right. I guess there are some valuable lessons in your approach, I just can't seem to think of any. Maybe you could provide some.

 

For us, we teach the Scouts that they need to Be Prepared (where have I heard that before?). If they aren't, they will suffer the consequences. If a Scout forgets his rain gear, he is going to get wet (happened to this same Scout, he says it will never happen again - for the book or rain gear). I don't think he would have learned the same lesson if I played "mommy" and pulled out an extra poncho, or we allowed him to have his BOR without his book.

 

No mistake, but I will clarify:

In our Troop, you have to have your Handbook to be in uniform for maximum points in the Honor Patrol Competition.

 

[evmori]

Well, Ed, to be our in Troop, a Scout needs a handbook. We use it to record his advancement, so without it, the Scout can't advance.

 

Then you are adding to the requirements, Brent. If you Advancement Chair is worth their salt, the advancement records would be current and up to date.

 

When I was at the Troop level, all the Scouts in my Troop had a handbook. When they crossed over from WEBELOS we gave them one. But we didn't require them to bring to meetings or BOR's. We taught our Scouts to be prepared, too. And if being prepared meant bringing their handbook, then they needed to bring it.

 

Ya can't go spouting policy if you aren't going to follow it!

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

That is just too funny, coming from someone who makes up ridiculous interpretations allowing SMs to tell their boys they can wear jeans with their uniform! Or better yet, can't go a few days without posting that a uniform isn't required!

 

I'm just curious - when you were involved with your Troop, did you constantly tell the boys they didn't need a uniform? And that they didn't even need to attend meetings or outings to be considered active? I bet that would lead to the formation of one of the best Troops in the council!

 

I suggest you join the ACLU - you'd be much happier, and I'm sure they could use your special interpretative skills!