Once Again - Uniforms and BOR

[evry]

I realize that this topic has probably been discussed many times and Scouters have differing views on it, but I hope that with further discussion I (we) could learn more about the Scouting program and how it deals with these types of awkward situations.

 

After our troop's weekly meeting, we had scheduled several BORs for rank. One of the BORs was for our SPL to attain the rank of Life Scout. Our Advancement Committee Chairman has instructed the Scouts, on many occasions, that they should be in full Class A uniforms during BORs, inclusive of sashes.

 

Unfortunately, the SPL comes to the BOR with only his Scout shirt and blue jeans. The shirt is lacking the proper insignia for his Star Rank and his SPL patch and he was not wearing his sash. Before the BOR can even start, the Chairman tells the SPL that he is not in proper uniform and that the BOR will need to be rescheduled for the following week.

 

The SPL's mother was very upset and demanded to see the bylaws of the troop that specify the troop's proper uniform. She was shown the bylaws that state that for Class A uniforms, the Scout should wear the official BSA pants or other similar olive green pants (camouflage pants are not acceptable). BTW, this was my first time that I has seen the bylaws!

 

I should not have become involved, but I decided to play devil's advocate and told some senior leaders that requiring Scouts to wear a uniform at BOR is actually adding to the requirements. Needless to say, they gave me a scornful look .... more or less saying "who do you think you are Mr. know it all?"

 

I'm confused....I would like the Scouts to have respect for themselves and for the Troop by wearing their uniforms at the BOR, (especially when you are SPL!) but at the same time, I feel that the BOR is not evaluating what needs to be evaluated, which is the Scout himself, as well as how the Troop is doing in getting these Scouts ready for leadership. I feel that we need to make major progress in the second area since we are lacking big time in the patrol method / leadership skills / boy led troop. Somehow, I feel the proper wearing of a uniform during BORs is secondary, albeit important.

 

Of interest....the Scoutmaster, who is a very nice man but getting detached from the everyday working of the Troop, was also wearing jeans with his Class A shirt. He is also the founder of the CO and is an Eagle Scout from this Troop in the 1950's.

 

Been thinking that perhaps this isn't the right Troop for my son and maybe look for another one, but at the same time, we (son and I) like the Scouts in this Troop and we want to make the Troop better. I just don't know whether it is possible to change a Troop that has some strong adults that have been there many years and have a sense of ownership!

 

 

[evmori]

Requiring a Scout to wear his uniform for a BOR is adding to the requirements. This might be in your Troop bylaws, but it is not part of BSA advancement.

[PeteM]

From the sounds of it, the scouts aren't even getting TO their BOR, so it is not technically adding to the requirements. If the BOR hasn't started, how can it be adding to the requirements?

 

(Putting on Kevlar suit now)

[John-in-KC]

If a Troop is going to require full uniforming, then it also needs to provide experienced uniforms and opportunities to raise money for uniforms. Not all youth members have families which can afford a uniform. The times right now are not easy. Would you rather have a youth properly uniformed who cannot go to camp this summer, a youth who is going to camp but doesn't have full uniform, or offer the youth a way to do both?

 

Now, you say your Scoutmaster is jeans and shirt? Then, that's the example the program side is giving to the youth membership. I think you need to look at the adults first. If you're going to play full uniform, set the example, get the Scouters in uniform.

 

BTW, what are the expectations of the IH and COR?

 

BTW, how are the Committee people who are sitting the BOR dressed? If they are not at least in business casual (slacks/polo), then do we not have a situation of "do as I say, not as I do?"

 

There are lots of other measures of a Troop I'll look at before I look at uniforms...

[Scoutfish]

 

 

The BOR didn't start because the scout didn't wear the uniform that was added to the requirements.

 

As a side issue though, I would ask the scout what a full uniform consisted of. I mean, I wouldn't cancel the BOR, but I would ask: "If you were going to put your uniform on, why not ALL of it?"

 

Find out why just the shirt was okay, and why not his SPL patch, Star Rank,and sash?

[BrentAllen]

evry,

You don't need any bylaws to see the definition of the official BSA uniform - it's in your son's Boy Scout Handbook. It doesn't include blue jeans.

 

This is another example proving Baden-Powell's statement, "Show me a poorly uniformed Troop, and I'll show you a poorly uniformed Scoutmaster."

 

evry, what is the downside of requiring the Scouts to wear the complete, correct uniform? What harm will this cause the Scout?

 

What is the upside? The Scout learns to follow instructions, to be prepared, to have his gear in order, to take pride in the way he looks, to learn to lead by example, to hold yourself to a higher standard. Sounds like your SPL isn't getting much of this at home.

 

I would suggest to you that carrying around the "requiring a uniform is adding to the requirements" idea will not be conducive to making the Troop better, as you state. Unless you think a poorly uniformed Troop is a good thing.

 

Our SPL was ready for his SM conference and BOR last week. He was wearing his uniform, but didn't have his book. In our Troop, you have to have your Handbook to be in uniform. No book, no BOR. He agreed he was setting a bad example for the rest of the Troop. He had his book this week, and passed his BOR.

[frank10]

We would have held the BOR. Young man Might have passed too.

He would have faced teh following question...

"Most scouts wear their uniform to show their scout spirit and leadership. How do you manage to do this without wearing it?"

[Oak Tree]

As long as you've made it possible for all Scouts to have the full uniform, I don't really have an issue with requiring the full uniform for a BoR, especially if you have it written in your by-laws. I think it would be much better if the SM actually wore the full uniform.

 

evry, I think you realize that inserting yourself didn't seem to help the situation, but I know sometimes it can be hard to resist. :-)

 

If you were really worried about trying to fit the letter of the law, then maybe you could say, "we will schedule a BoR for the Scout when he appears in full uniform" (presuming, again, that they all have uniforms).

 

In my troop, hardly any of the Scouts wear the uniform pants regularly and we don't require it for a BoR, so that's not an issue, but I don't recall that we've ever done a BoR for a Scout who wasn't wearing the uniform shirt. At the same time, I can't remember denying any Scout a Bor for that reason either.

 

It's not good to spring a surprise on a Scout, though. If the troop requires pants for a BoR, it should be communicated fairly regularly so that everyone knows the rule. Our district does Eagle BoRs this way (well, it's either full uniform, or no uniform).

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with BA.

 

Trottin' out "don't add to the requirements" at every turn does seem to be a bit silly, eh? Sets yeh up for all kinds of just-skate-by kinds of things that we really don't want to be teachin' kids.

 

So I've got no problem with a troop that wants to hold the line on uniformin' at a BOR.

 

I think da problem only arises when it's just for the BOR. If the troop generally is comfortable with lax uniformin', or the occasional "Untrainable" patch or whatnot, then it's not fair to the lads to change the expectations just for the BOR. The BOR's expectations should match the Scoutmaster's expectations and what the norm is in the troop, not spring some surprise on the kid.

 

So if the troop has an expectation of full uniforming right down to the socks, then it's reasonable to expect that for a BOR under all but unusual circumstances. If a troop routinely wears shirts with jeans, then I reckon shirts with jeans should be OK for a BOR. Now I personally hate da shirts-with-jeans thing, but if yeh want to fix it in a unit, the place to do it is not the BOR.

 

I'd say the adults in your unit need to get on the same page, evry. Only after they do that should they be workin' with the kids on the issue.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

My thoughts on some things as other said part of what I said more eloquently. I also do not think it's adding to the requirements. To me wearing the complete uniform is an EXPECTATION, at all events; meetings, trips, BORs, etc. It is written in the by-laws (ok I don't think that should be necessary, but I am in a unti withthem so I can't really say anything ) As for not wearing his current rank and POR, WHY IS HE NOT WEARING THEM? (caps for emphasis). The Scout has had at least 6 months to sew the rank patch on. As for the POR, unless he is new to that POR he has also had time to sew the POR emblem on as well. It doesn't take that long to sew on the rank patch on a pcoket. And while the Centennial uniform's sleeve pocket makes it more challenging to put on a POR, it still only takes a few minutes to put it on. Where is his scout spirit? Also if he is at an event outside the troop, how is someone to know he is the SPL withou the insignia?

 

Also adults need to set the example. SM shouldn't be in jeans.

 

 

PS, in reviewing my pack's by laws, I just realized that I am "out of uniform" as I wear my necker the proper way of over a tucked under collar, like BP, GBB and West said it should be worn, and not the current style of under a collar. OOPS.

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I agree, It looks as though he doesn't care about,or doesn't want anybody to know he holds that POR.

 

As for sewing ...even if it was to hard, scout too lazy, etc..., you can get a patch sewed on by almost any seamstress/ tailor for a few dollars!

 

[Knot Head]

We go full uniform for scouts and adults (except in summer). But even in summer you need to wear full uniform and bring your book for a BOR or you'll have to reschedule. I can't remember anyone ever having to reschedule. It's just a given. While most guys have real bsa pants it's just not that hard to borrow a pair of pants for a BOR. If a guy can't buy a scout shirt the CO will buy it for him or he can get one from the used clothes bin.

 

So for us it's not a big stretch to get into full uniform since they are pretty much in it every week anyway. Some guys might wear jeans one week but they know the expectations for a BOR. Since the expectations are plainly laid in our troop it's not asking too much for them to meet them. IMHO.

 

With that said if your troop's tradition is that jeans are okay then go with it.(This message has been edited by knot head)

[trainerlady]

The BSA is a uniformed organization! Not sometimes, not when it's convenient, not just from the waist up. Football players wear it all, so do baseball, hockey and soccer players. Ever seen half dressed football player? IF you don't dress you don't play.

 

Let's take it a step further ever seen a half dressed McDonald's employee, a half dressed nurse, firefighter or EMT? IF your job says you wear this, that and the other thing for a uniform you wear it or you're fired. What's wrong with instilling this in our youth? Not every worker that wears a uniform gets it paid for by their employer. Most don't get that luxury/perk.

 

 

Some of my council's poorest units are the most completely dressed units. They might not be the best fitting, newest or spotless uniforms but the kids are in a full uniform at every meeting and every event. They are PROUD to wear the uniform. These are kids that might only eat twice a day thanks to breakfast club and free lunch programs. The unit, the kids and the parents have made a committment to scouting and follow it through as best as possible. The kids get a full uniforms one piece at a time, sometimes paid for with rolled change or from piggy banks cracked open on my store's counter. These kids have NOTHING but they want a full uniform so badly that they save their pennies for it.

 

There are several uniform closets in the council open to all and some for a given units only.

 

There are second hand stores, EBay, Craigslist, etc. If a scout wants it and a unit expects it and it is known then it will happen.

 

A full and complete uniform is not an added requirement for any part of scouting. It's an epectation and should be a given. After all uniforms are one of our methods. If you aren't using this method how many more are you sidestepping, glossing over or forgetting?

 

State the expectations, make them well known, and follow through on the expectations. You will ultimately be a stronger unit and have better members for it.

[evmori]

Your analogies, trainerlady, while accurate are not applicable. All of the organizations and companies you used in your analogy require the participants or employees to own a uniform. The BSA does not. And until it does, turning a Scout away from any BOR for not wearing one is adding to the requirements.

[shortridge]

evry,

 

I think you hit the problem right on the head when you described how the Scoutmaster wasn't properly uniformed. It would have been interesting to see the BOR's reaction should the SPL have dragged him into the room as an example!

 

I'd also note that an MB sash is not required as part of a "full uniform." National's holy writ - the uniform inspection sheet - only says "if worn."