What happens if I sign this form?

[theysawyoucomin']

Calico,

I have not signed anything.

 

 

 

The boy asked for a SC.

 

I took the boy aside at a Troop Meeting and made my feelings known to him with several breaches of the Law.

 

I also made my feelings known to the Scout concerning growth at NYLT and through being PL or the SPL.

 

I told him I would have a hard time recommending he go forward at this time. All done in a helping manner.

 

I maintain that a week at NYLT and 6 months in a peer leadership position would lead to a much better leader than we have today. Is not this what's best for the boy?

 

I was hoping for a parent that would say what my mother would have said, "You heard what he told you now do it."

 

Father feels I am moving the goal post after the kick.

 

I don't know why I'm asking for all this as the Scout could very grudgingly go through the motions of being the SPL and that could backfire on the boys that really want to soar.

 

I have no problem with how he did as a DC. At his life SC I asked how many boys he served He said 20 there was really 10.

I asked what Cub Year they were in . He did not know. I told him to close his eyes and picture a boy. :What necker is that boy wearing?(the boy was a tiger through WEEB and AOL, he knows the colors)

Boy still could not answer. I advanced the boy to Life, no harm done the DL said he did well. The Cubs like him alot.. Many of them will be Boy Scouts because of his work.

 

 

None of this addresses the other issues I have brought up.

 

Part of me tells me my "give a rat's rear end" is near busted. Helping the Scout grow and mature isn't making me any thinner, richer or more attractive to the opposite sex, or making my whites whiter right from the washer(like any of those products sold on TV)

 

Caring sucks.

 

 

[Lisabob]

OK I am unclear on something here.

 

The boy met the standard (except he's 20 days short).

 

You agree that he served well as a den chief and that den chief is one of the positions of responsibility accepted for Eagle scouts. He has the other parts of the requirements completed (merit badges, project, etc.).

 

Your complaint appears to be that you want him to grow and develop more as a leader. Certainly, that's a worthy goal.

 

Why, though, are you treating Eagle as the end game? The boy is 14. He has another 3 plus years to be a scout. Presumably he will continue to mature, grow, and develop during that time. Why must he have all of these formative experiences like NYLT and being SPL before he reaches Eagle?

 

Is this boy planning to quit scouting the day he gets to Eagle? Supposing he sticks around, are you going to stop helping him grow on the day he gets to Eagle?

 

 

[nolesrule]

The Scout Law issues, that your call.

 

As for the POR issue, if after 20 more days he is still the den chief, he has met the requirement. (if you do pull him from DC, you're not doing the den any favors).

 

Not everyone wants to be SPL or PL. Besides, that decision is really only in the hands of 1) the scouts that want to hold those positions and 2) the scouts in the troop/patrol who do the voting.

 

Or maybe he'll change his mind down the road, but why hold him up now? Or do you think he's planning to quit after his Eagle Board of Review?(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[theysawyoucomin']

I cannot read the boy's mind. I didn't mean that in a snotty way. I am appreciative of all the comments here.

 

2 options

 

The boy leaves right away.

Well he has been awarded something that some in the Troop feel was minimally gained. Boy may use my misgivings as "Mr. Gates doesn't like me so I'm quitting."

If he wanted to leave anyway I give him a great excuse.

 

 

Does that happen to the top 3%??????? Why would you leave some place you were just told you were "better" than 97% of the other applicants. Any knights feel like leaving the kingdom after being knighted?

 

 

Boy stays. Possible. But then why not do the NYLT or some other POR then get Eagle. If he is staying what's the rush? All MB's done . Project done. Take a breath and have fun. Build a surfboard in the composite materials MB. Add to that resume before going to the BOR.Leave the place better than you found it. Heck you're Eagle material at least you got the boxes checked. Mentor the youngest boys in the Troop. Live it.

 

Boy has never backpacked(it's not required), boy did COPE, how about rock climbing MB? Eat from all places on the Scouting buffet!!!!

 

Some boys would never think of going on a 50 miler until physically mature why make Eagle if you are not emotionally mature?

 

 

Why would we award something and then hope for the growth later on.

 

When does success come before work?

 

 

 

It was never my intent to pull the boy from his Den.

 

 

 

We have another Scout an ASPL that meets one meeting a month with "his" den and he is still the ASPL. Nothing to be gained by being a DC again. Just love of the job. Has gone to camp twice with his kids. Will probably go to camp again with them. This boy realizes that DC is not the only thing for a POR just like two other Eagles before him. That is three boys that went on to peer leadership after being a DC.

 

 

 

I found this post from Beavah. I think it is timely for this discussion.

 

 

 

 

RE: Eagle and the Minimums

Posted: Wednesday, 11/11/2009: 8:35:12 PM quality

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What if we respected each other enough to know that if a unit puts out an Eagle Candidate we all know that the boy has done everything he is supposed to and has fulfilled the requirements and lives the oath and law.

 

I reckon we do. Leastways, I've never seen a scouter anywhere give an Eagle a hard time. Da reaction to kids is just what we find in this thread with kenk's son, eh? Congratulations.

 

These issues come up on da forums when people are askin' or wonderin' about what standards they should set within their troop to do right by kids. What makes for the best program, or how does someone improve their program. It's not about individual boys. So we give these fellow scouters advice to do what makes sense in terms of developing character, or to follow da requirements, or whatever. We're tryin' to help 'em help boys.

 

Now, I have seen boys not respect Eagles whom they felt didn't measure up or got an easy pass from da adults or whatnot. Again, that's an internal issue for a troop, eh? But it's vitally important for teachin' character and how we use the advancement method. If good kids like CrossRamWedge's son see boys gettin' Eagle on technicalities rather than real skills and character, it devalues and undermines the entire advancement program in their eyes. Really does awful things to the program, or it does awful things socially to the scout who got da "easy bye" that the other boys don't accept.

 

I've also talked with employers who no longer hire Eagle Scouts because of bad experiences with 'em. Da sense is that Eagles feel entitled and seem to expect others to do the work to make 'em succeed. They're not go-getters. Perhaps that's a result of da just-do-the-minimums approach to advancement, perhaps its just this couple of employers happened to have a bad run of kids. Still doesn't help da program or the other boys in it.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the boys are watching(they are) , we live in a tiny town, what message are we sending?

[John-in-KC]

If you didn't want him as a Den Chief for Life--->Eagle POR, why did you authorize it?

 

You're the Scoutmaster. You have a vote... especially on the assignment of Den Chiefs to Packs. The program literature makes that very clear.

 

I'm not trying to be BW here, but the program National publishes is designed to make the puzzle fit together. If you choose to change a piece of the puzzle, then you're going to have a rough edge. Rough edges need trimming to make them work.

 

What's your CC and COR telling you? Is it time to fall on your sword at this hill? That'll mean not being SM anymore, most likely. Can you live with that?

 

Right now I see an awful lot of emotional investment in you in not letting this Scout advance.

 

Prior to the start of the boys Eagle project I told his Dad I wanted him to be in a new billet for Eagle POR.

 

The boy was shocked that he would have to wait until elections.

Thinking that I may be wrong in all this, I offered him OA rep. 6 months of OA chapter meetings a report of 5 minutes or less each month at a Troop meeting and boom a new POR.

Boy refused, he wants it NOW.

 

Why did you not talk with the boy directly at the time he achieved Life, vice waiting until the project, then telling his Dad. Why didn't the SPL talk with the boy about leadership posts; why didn't you have a followup SM conference with the boy at the time?

 

I can't advise you on this one. You have to make the determination yourself. If you deny him your signature, I think you have to expect an appeals process is going to begin. You saw the thread with mdsummer. How much of that are you willing to go through? You said the DAC stormed out of the meeting. What can you anticipate if an appeal reaches his level? Remember, units have no right of appeal, only youth members or their parents/guardians.

 

Lots for you to ponder. If in all this I was to look at anyone's advice hard, it'd be Lisa's.

 

[nolesrule]

Remember, Scouting isn't about leadership, though that is one of its methods. It's about Character, Citizenship and Fitness.

 

 

For 2nd Class requirement #5, it says "Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of wild animals (birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, mollusks) found in your community." Would you refuse to sign off the requirement because a scout left off an animal that you felt should have been on his list?

 

 

 

At least the Scout was doing his job as DC, making a good impression on the DL and the den, which hopefully will result in better recruiting and/or retention come crossover time for that den. How often do we hear complaints about do-nothing scouts holding PORs?

 

John is right. Your option was (and for the next couple of weeks still is) to pull him from being a DC. Otherwise, he's completed the requirement. But at this point, you've given no reason and have showed no inclination to pull him for failure to perform his duties. So your options are either to support the scout going forward, or to fall on your sword over this.

 

 

The bigger concern for me is the way he froze when you asked him questions about his time served. You said he got good reviews from his DL, so he was obviously doing his job. So why was he having trouble answering you?

 

 

But like I said before, developing leadership isn't the same as forcing someone to be PL or SPL in order to earn Eagle. 1) They are elected positions, 2) they aren't the only positions allowed, 3) not everyone wants to hold those positions.

 

Finally, is this something you are doing only with this scout? Or would you require PL/SPL time for all Eagle candidates? Doing it only for the one scout means setting different standards on the requirements for different scouts. Doing it for all your scouts is just plain adding to the requirements.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Eagle92]

What really concerns me is the "several breaches of the law." How is that being a good citizen, Cit Com & Cit Nat, as well as following the Scout Law; Trustworthy,Loyal, Courteous,& Obedient.

[nolesrule]

That concerns me as well, but since there seems to be a conscious choice to just gloss over that, then I can only infer that it is minor stuff.

[Lisabob]

Those certainly could be issues. On that, Owl needs to make his own judgment call because from where we all sit, it is really difficult or maybe impossible, to know how severe these issues are. Also, I know that there are a couple of scouts I've met who just really irritate me. An off-hand response by them that displays incidental rudeness would stick in my craw in a way that it might not, from a different boy. Knowing this, I try very hard to avoid being unfair to them, while not excusing horrible behavior, either. Sometimes that line is a challenge to find and I don't think that it can be done well over the internet.

 

But the POR is the one I'm seeing Owl make his stand on here, and I don't think Owl has a good argument there. (Sorry.)

 

I do believe a boy can continue to benefit from scouting after Eagle. I also think most boys are not well suited to be SPL before age 14. Expecting them to hold that position at a young age is probably unrealistic.

 

We might all agree, philosophically speaking, that being PL or SPL or ASPL *ought to be* a requirement for Eagle (I'm not saying we *do* all agree - just that in theory we might). But in fact, that is not the requirement as currently written. Consequently, even though I think I understand why Owl wants this scout to do more, I don't think he can require it of the scout in return for allowing the scout to have his EBOR.

 

By the way, we have a scout in my son's troop who will be awarded Eagle sometime in the not-too-distant future. This boy's "responsibility" has been primarily to serve (and I use that term lightly) as troop librarian. I'm not impressed. I'm also not the scoutmaster. If I were, I would push this boy to stretch a little and try something a bit more demanding. Together with the SPL I might work on appointing some other boy to be librarian instead (actually I'd probably abolish the position since the librarian never does anything much). But if I became SM tomorrow, I could not tell this boy he had not met the POR requirement. He has. I just don't care much for the manner in which he was allowed to do it. My choices going forward would be to encourage, cajole, push, and prod the boy into doing more, but withholding my signature on his Eagle app would not be a choice available for this reason.

 

 

[Eamonn]

In the past we have talked about Eagle Scout Rank and who it belongs to?

There are a good many really outstanding Scouter's who feel that they are charged with maintaining the integrity of the Eagle Scout rank, which as far as demanding that the requirements are met, I would hope we all are. But some of these Scouter's with the best of intentions, feel that they need not only to be the gatekeeper; they also feel some sort of need to safeguard Eagle Scout rank from not being what they think it needs to be by adding their own take on the requirements.

For some other Scouter's this is seen as adding to the requirements and acts like a red rag to a bull.

I tend, even thought it might not be 100% Kosher to be OK with ignoring some stuff.

A Troop that insists that Scouts wear full uniform to a ESBOR? I don't see this as a big deal.

A Troop that has a history of always having Scouts do some sort of a hike, before undertaking the project? Again I'm OK with turning a blind eye too. These "Added requirements" that Scouts know about and the Troop has been doing since BP was a Lad? I can live with and I see as not doing any real harm.

As for all this talk about Appeals?

To the best of my knowledge, in the Council I serve and have served for over 25 years there has only ever been one appeal, which I was asked to sort out. (In that case the Board was out of line.)

I do get a little peeved when I hear the guys who want to set a number of hours that a project needs to be or the guys who seem to think that Scouts need a PhD in construction in order to get the project done.

There is also I'm sad to say some Scouter's who seem willing to cut corners and are happy to throw the requirements out the window in order to ensure that Scouts who hang around long enough in the units they serve do receive the Eagle Scout badge.

 

My take on all of this is that the Eagle Scout rank belongs to the Scout.

He and He alone knows what it is really worth.

It would in my view be a real shame if the future every time he writes his resume and lists that he is an Eagle Scout, it reminds him of how he cheated and didn't do what he was supposed to do.

While for some Scouts the Eagle does mean a lot, there are others who see it as being no different that the other trophies that they manage to collect over their childhood years.

We as adults who serve the youth in this organization are at times overwhelmed with all this talk about requirements, adding to requirements, appeals and the like.

Again my take on all of this. Is that we are here to serve the Scouts. I don't ever want to have a Scout who is ashamed to list his Eagle Scout on anything because in his heart he knows that he didn't earn it. But I also don't ever want to feel that I ever placed any unnecessary hurdles in his way that would prevent him from earning his Eagle.

My hope is that with the grace of God I'll somehow manage to do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do.

I might not always agree with the requirements, I might not always think that the person who signed off on some of the requirements or counseled some of the MB's did such a wonderful job. (I might want to do something about that.)

 

uz2bnowl,

I'm still not really understanding where you are coming from.

If your problem is with the Leadership quality of this Lad?

Then I would hope that his lack of leadership ability would have come to light when he was leading the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project.

I have sat on a lot of ESBOR's.

At times I have been blown away by hearing the plans that Lads of 16 and 17 years old have for their future. Everything seems to be very clearly mapped out, they seem to know what they want and where they are going.

This isn't the case with younger Scouts.

Sure they are young, only time will fix that!

They very well may have raced through the requirements, the might at that age still be far more under the influences of their parents, (Time will do something about that as well!).

Some of these younger Lads do quit soon after they receive their Eagle.

Our job as adult leaders is to do what we can to keep them in the program. I've seen very young Eagles go on to become really wonderful members of our camp staff and be active in the OA.

Some leave the Troop and join one of the other BSA sections. I don't have the numbers, but I'll bet most of the Lads who earn the Sea Scout Quartermaster are Eagle Scouts.

I have posted the good old "We need to give our kids Roots and Wings" thing a lot!

We never know what will happen when we give our kids wings, we can only hope that the roots we have given them will in time help provide great fruit.

Eamonn.

 

 

[BDPT00]

I'm hearing what the Scoutmaster is saying. I think we're all attacking him because we know the kid will win an appeal. The question I have is more along the lines of our Aims in Scouting. What I'm hearing the Scoutmaster say is that the Scout is coming up short in the character department. "Leadership is just one of the methods." Well, so is advancement. The Scoutmaster wants him to get more out of Scouting. What I'm hearing people say is, "Just sign the papers." "You've obviously messed up." "It's too late to fix anything now." "You should resign."

It sounds to me that the Scoutmaster is trying hard to justify this candidate's quest for Eagle, and it's just not coming out right. He's not ready in the eyes of the Scoutmaster, and I'd guess he's not ready in the eyes of other adults and the Scouts. Has he fulfilled the requirements? Probably. Is he "Eagle material?" Probably not.

Black and white ... the kid wins. The Scoutmaster is dealing in the gray area, and I'm empathizing with his dilemma. My very first EBOR was with an almost 15 year old. I felt he wasn't worthy, but I was out-voiced. Two weeks later, he was gone completely. His Eagle was just a resume item. I wish I'd have had the courage this Scoutmaster is displaying. I think he's trying to help this kid, and he's trying keep the bar high at the same time. The advice he's receiving here is that it's ok to lower the bar. (Sign the papers and/or resign). I don't agree. Unless we've walked in this Scoutmaster's shoes, I think we need to listen more and offer judgement less. He's clearly troubled over this, and he obviously knows his responsibilities and objectives. He wants to do the right thing. That's why he's a Scoutmaster.

BDPT00

[Eagle92]

Ok I've commented on the breaches of the law. yes it is getting minor attention on this thread, but that is a major concern for me. I wuld like to hear more if possible.

 

Other concerns. 1) trying to get the paperwork signed a few days early. 6 months is 6 months. Sorry that is an issue for me as well, and he needs to wait the full 6 months.

 

2) DC as a POR. Yes that is an acceptable POR, BUT did the Life do work over the past 6 months? Immediate answer is NO b/c he is a few days short of 6 months since Life BOR. A more probing question would be Was the pack active over the summer and did the DC do stuff with them over the summer? While not knowing what level the CSs are has me dumbfounded, he is doing his job according to the DL, so that is moot. BUT the three months over the summer has me concerned. If they didn't do anyhting, then he wasn't as DC for the full 6 months. OR if he didn't attend activities, then he was not doing his job.

 

Since outsiders are gettign involved, I think there ismore to the story that needs to addressed.

[scoutldr]

Owl stated, "The boy does not obey Scouts elected over him. He is immature. (As many 14 year olds are---but only one 14 year old is going up for a BOR/SCC). I would really like to see this young man try to lead people that are just like him."

 

Typically, this type of behavior does not manifest itself for the first time in the 6 months prior to the EBOR. How was it addressed in prior BOR (FC, Star, Life)? I'm assuming it was not addressed, since he's Life already. It's not really fair to let things slide until the Eagle SMC and then slam dunk him. Not sayin you did that...just sayin.

 

[nolesrule]

I admire what uz2bnowl wants to accomplish in regards to helping the scout grow, but you can't artificially set the advancement bar higher because you aren't getting the results out of it that you want.

 

As far as "Eagle material", until the BSA publishes an actual document stating somethingdifferent, it's still defined by the joining requirements and "checklists" on pages 432-443 of the Boy Scout Handbook (12th Edition).

 

(Edited to put "checklists" in quotes.)(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Eamonn]

BDPT00,

I really hope that no one is attacking anyone!

I'm sorry if it sounds as if they are.

My point is that there are opportunities to ensure "Quality Control" before you are faced with the choice of signing or not signing the form.

Some things are not always cut and dried but with open communication and a good relationship with the Scout things do have a way of working out.

For example,if I'm the Skipper of a Sea Scout Ship and a Scout comes to me saying that he has completed the Galley requirements for Ordinary.

Which read:

 

While on a cruise or at a camp, prepare or take charge of a breakfast, lunch and dinner, including boiled, fried, and uncooked dishes. Demonstrate your ability to properly use the galley equipment or personal cooking gear aboard your craft. Demonstrate appropriate sanitation techniques for food preparation and meal cleanup.

Submit a menu, list of provisions, and estimated costs before meeting the above requirement.

Explain the use of charcoal, pressurized alcohol, propane, and compressed natural gas stoves including safety precautions for each.

The Lad explains that on several "Land Cruises" (Camps) He has met the cooking requirements.

I agree that he has indeed done this at camp. But I suggest that cooking in a small Galley aboard a boat under sail is a very different kettle of fish, which poses a lot of different problems and I think he should on the next cruise take charge of the Galley.

The Scout then on the next cruise is head cook and bottle washer.

He does a good job and feels proud of himself.

I feel happy that he is now able to master the skills needed to cook in the Galley and we are all happy.

But if this same Scout went to one of the Ship's Mates and explained that he'd met the requirements while at camp and the Mate signed off?

He would still have met the requirements.

The fault would be mine for not explaining to the Ship's Mates what my expectations for this requirements were.

It would in no way be the fault of the Scout.

Sure I could meet with the Scout and suggest that to improve his skills he might need to cook while on board, but once the requirement is signed off it really shouldn't be unsigned!

If and when the Lad came up for his rank advancement asking him to redo the Galley requirement wouldn't be the thing to do.

Eamonn.