What happens if I sign this form?

[theysawyoucomin']

I am a Scoutmaster.

 

If I am asking this question you know that I think the boy isn't ready to be an Eagle.

 

 

Is it contrary to sign a Scout's Eagle form and then tell the Board or Review that you have misgivings about the boy making Eagle at this time?

 

WHAT IN FACT ARE YOU SAYING WHEN YOU SIGN THE FORM?

 

Not yelling just don't know how to underline. If they don't need my signature as the SM why not just go to the Board?

 

DAC stormed out of a meeting we had on the subject this evening. He said, "You are making a mountain out of a molehill". I guess as a Scoutmaster your concerns don't amount to much.

 

Ready to resign immediately.

 

UC was at the same meeting concerning this advancement and said 5 months and 10 days were close enough to six months. This is not the only issue.

 

The Scout will make Eagle someday but if he is looking for it right now he does not have my edorsement. Boy is 14 1/2 yrs old.

[eghiglie]

Interesting thread.

 

If you sign the form than you agree to him advancing.

 

It sound like there are two issues here:

 

1) Something about the boy related to his being an Eagle - As other posts have stated if the boy meets the minimum requirements than he should make Eagle. In my council if a boy disputes an advancement issue to Council, the boy shall win each and every time.

 

2) The boy has not completed six months, anything less than six months raises a a flag and will cause paperwork to get kicked back. Req 1 for Eagle states "Be active in Troop for six months after achieving Life" and Req 4 talks about the 6 month PoR. It doesn't seem possible for the boy to get a SM Conf before six months.

 

Anything less means the boy should not get a sign off, National will kick these back even if they are a day off. I've seen it happen.

 

Good luck and I hope someone realizes that waiting the extra few weeks is best.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Your signature on the form certifies that all requirements have been met (including tenure and Scout Spirit) and is a recommendation to the Troop Committee that the EBOR be scheduled. IF that is not true, then you should not sign, but have a SM conference with the Scout and let him know where he is falling short and agree to a plan to correct deficiencies.

[Exibar]

Other than the 6 months, what other requirements has he not made?

 

Wereas I agree that the 6months is a FIRM unwavering requirement, I don't see anythign wrong with the ScoutMaster telling the boy that he has not fully met the 6 month requirement and to see the SM in 20 days.

 

sounds to me like there is more to this other than that 6 months...

 

Mike B

[Curious]

"The Scout will make Eagle someday but if he is looking for it right now he does not have my edorsement. Boy is 14 1/2 yrs old."

 

What does his age have to do with anything? Or are you saying he doesn't get your endorsement because of his age?

[BrentAllen]

My guess is the age comment was just to point out that the Scout wasn't up against his 18th birthday. He has plenty of time to properly earn the award.

[GernBlansten]

If the boy has met all the (objective) requirements and you won't sign his application as SM, you should resign.

 

If the boy has not met all the (objective) requirements, then you should stand your ground and not sign the application.

 

Not fulfilling a required POR for the required time should hold the boy back. Not meeting your idea of the appropriate age to become eagle is not.

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

If my district advancement chair and unit commissioner are giving me grief because I very correctly refuse to approve an advancement significantly short of the require time, they wouldn't have the opportunity to storm out of the meeting. They would be thrown out long before.

 

Why are the DAC and UC even involved at this point? And why in the world are they giving you such wrong information? There's got to be more to this.....

[John-in-KC]

Everyone needs to take a step back, go to the campfire, pull out the hip flask, and have one!

 

First, the young man has plenty of time to make eagle. The remaining twenty days to complete his base six months tenure is a pole vaulting over mouse turds issue. Tell the young man you'll be happy to have his rank advancement SM conference after DD MMM 2009.

 

What does the Scoutmaster sign off on?

- He signs off on tenure. That's objective.

- He signs off on Scout Spirit (living the oath and law in his daily life)

- He signs off on certification of the MBs. That's objective.

The Scoutmaster, together with the CC, are recommending an EBOR be convened. It's not just a participation; it's very explicitly an approval.

 

If you're not approving this young man's application, you have to tell him why. If it's beyond the basics of objective information, you and he have to determine what needs to be done to bring him to closure.

 

If you deny without making that determination, you give him grounds to appeal that may well take his advancement out of your hands.

 

If he objects, he has the option to appeal, and he may win or lose.

 

What are your specific misgivings, beyond the 20 days?

 

Have you talked with your CC and COR?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[gcnphkr]

From the very first line of the application: "TO THE EAGLE SCOUT RANK APPLICANT. This application is to be completed after you have completed all requirements for the Eagle Scout rank."

 

Six months is six months. What is so pressing here that the scout cannot wait 20 days?

 

Is there some other reason you don't think this scout is ready? If the UC and DAC are involved then this started more that a day or two ago with a "You need another 3 weeks Billy." What's the rest of the story.

[Eamonn]

uz2bnowl,

Please forgive me.

I know that what I'm going to post is going to make me sound like a pompous, arrogant, book-thumping twit.

But here goes.

If you have known this Lad for any real amount of time?

The problem with you and this piece of paper didn't just happen or come up over night.

You know the Lad, you have been around him, worked with him and had a relationship with him for some little time.

At any time you could have had a Scoutmaster conference with him.

You could have worked with him to get over whatever the problems that you both might have.

Why did you wait till the train was leaving the station, before you bought the ticket?

There may of course be reasons for your failure to do what was needed to be done before now?

But trying to point the finger at everyone and anyone for what you have failed to address in the past? Seems to me that you are shirking your responsibilities.

Sorry if this sounds harsh.

Eamonn.

 

[CalicoPenn]

When you sign the form, you are telling the Board of Review that you have verified that the Scout has met the requirements - all of the requirements - the objective and the subjective. You're telling the BOR that you have met with the Scout and he is ready to advance.

 

It's a bit unusual for a Scoutmaster to sign a form then tell the BOR you have your doubts. The time to address the doubts is before you sign the form. If I were the DAC or on the BOR I'd be wondering if you were just trying to dump the issue on me, rather than take ownership of it, yet at the same time, I'll listen to what you have to say, because though it's unusual, it's not unheard of, particularly if there's been some kind of serious breach since you signed the form.

 

It sounds like the 5 months, 10 days is a different issue - the UC is a twit if he told you that and I'd be on the phone with the District Commissioner demanding a new UC. If you signed the form too early, the Scout should have no problem with you telling him you're sorry, you screwed up, and there is still another 20 days to complete. However, if you signed the form once, and are thinking about using that 20 day delay to make a new case that the Scout hasn't met the Scout Spirit requirements (which sounds like this is the other issue), then I think you should go ahead and re-sign at the end of the 20 days and not use the opportunity for a "do over". I think you used up that window of opportunity with the first signature.

 

There's another piece to this - You signed the form (forget that it was early), then you voiced concerns to the DAC or whomever - since you signed the form, you've moved the process along. You've got to let the next folks - be it the DAC or the BOR - make the decision from here. If they decide that a concern that to you is a big issue is just "making mountains out of a molehill", I think you've got to let it go and let them make the final determination - you've done your part, and you've done your best, you expressed your concerns, and it really is pretty much out of your hands at this point.

[theysawyoucomin']

The rest of the story.

 

 

The boy does not obey Scouts elected over him.

 

He is immature. (As many 14 year olds are---but only one 14 year old is going up for a BOR/SCC).

 

I would really like to see this young man try to lead people that are just like him.

 

There is no requirement for a boy to be a PL or SPL. What if no boy steps forward to do this? In that world have no camping trips so boys can earn the Camping MB. After all we are in the Minimalist World where nobody has to lead the Troop. Everybody gets to be the Bugler because that is a POR.

 

The boy was a Den Chief the entire year last year. Achieved Life in mid March.

The Sept election of new Troop billets(had he shown up) I would have explained to him that I would not select him to be the DC this year and he should get elected or be selected by his SPL for something new.

 

Prior to the start of the boys Eagle project I told his Dad I wanted him to be in a new billet for Eagle POR.

 

The boy was shocked that he would have to wait until elections.

Thinking that I may be wrong in all this, I offered him OA rep. 6 months of OA chapter meetings a report of 5 minutes or less each month at a Troop meeting and boom a new POR.

Boy refused, he wants it NOW.

 

So while he breaches the Scout law as I see it every other box is checked because he slid the new POR past.

 

As his SM I'm not signing the paper. Am I right or wrong?

 

The Accountants of the Scout advancement world say yes.

 

The Idealist may say he needs more time. I also say that.

 

Who knows if he can get the right BOR to say "it's OK Johnny the SM is picking on you"

 

Top 3% of the movement? Not quite yet. 6 months of a peer led position or something else, then I don't have a leg to stand on.

 

 

 

Curious, His age has nothing to do with it. Just stating he is not 17 and 180 days. He is 14 and when it comes to making the whole thing work he acts somewhat less.

 

Gern, it is not a cut and dry as you first thought. Does the guy close to the action, the guy that observes, does that guy still have a say. Or, is it all about getting the boxes checked?

 

John(Redleg)---the CC,COR,DAC,Commish ,TAC,parent were all at a meeting

 

Not harsh Eamon,

If I am guilty of anything it is not knowing this boy was rushing to the EXIT. At his SC for Life he did not say that at 14 1/2 I'm pushing for Eagle.

The boy has been steadily(sp?) spoke to concerning the Scout law. He is not a Feloniuos(sp?) offender. He is a boy that has no respect for that glue that holds a Scout troop together, when your SPL or PL asks you to do something YOU DO IT.

 

I was his Weeb leader and CC,SC and a committee member for the Troop.

 

The boy was not selected for DC as his POR this year. It was not my intention to trip him up at 5 months and 15 days if DC for Eagle, it is my desire for him to experience some other billet within the Troop. I will not sign the paper because he is not ready to follow,HOW GOOD OF A LEADER CAN HE BE?

[Lisabob]

This is a call you have to make. But whatever the outcome, keep in mind that Eagle is not the end of the process. The boy has a lot of time AFTER he gets to Eagle, to work on his leadership and responsibility. I'm sure you'll offer him those opportunities, too.

 

 

[NWScouter]

read this right, the 5 months 10 days is how long after he was Life he served as a Den Chief an Eagle POR and you have a problem with either being a Den Chief as a qualifying POR or that he didnt do a good enough job as Den Chief.

 

If you have a problem with a Den Chief as Eagle POR, get over it, the requirements allow it. If you had a problem with his service as Den Chief and he has served a year and Im assuming he used it for Life, why wait until 20 days left. You should have discussed with him earlier in Scoutmaster Conference. By the way all he need to serve is 20 days more in POR, you cant make him serve six months, he only needs to serve six months in qualifying PORs it does not have to be in one position.

(This message has been edited by nwscouter)