Eagle Letters of Recommendation is NOT a requirement. Time to clear this up.

[AMulls]

John, I certainly understand that the ACP&P are the overall governing rules concerning advancement, my point was just that if there are hoops through which an Eagle candidate needs to jump, then they should be noted in the Handbook, since this is the scout's primary resource for advancement. Hence my point above about adding some language into the references requirement noting that local councils vary on how that is to be handled.

 

Ha ha, not at all Beavah. I think filling out the application is an easy part of the process, all things considered. And I remember using a typewriter for it. What a pain to try and line up all the different boxes to get the letters in the right spots!

 

However, I would argue that it's not a requirement for Eagle, merely the documentation of the completion of all the requirements. Granted, it has to be filled out in order to earn the rank, so in that respect it is a "requirement," but I don't consider it one of the "Requirements for Eagle." Paperwork always needs to be filled out in order to document advancement. It's just that for all previous ranks, that paperwork is generally filled out by someone other than the scout.

 

But, for argument's sake, the application is mentioned in the Message from the CSE in the Project Workbook which is listed in the actual Handbook requirements as needing to be filled out, so you could say that filling out the application is part of the requirements listed in the Handbook.

 

Wow, that was a lot of "arguing." I feel like a lawyer again!

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I don't have a problem asking the Scouts to complete the application, that is clearly explained in the 12 steps. Neither do I have a problem with asking for the essay on personal goals, which they slip in on the application. At least is all laid out in the documents and everyone is playing by the same rules.

 

I do have a problem with councils, mine included, which require Scouts to collect letters from their references and refuse to accept a Scout's application without them when the published policies specifically prohibit that.

 

Either follow the rules or work to get them changed. Isn't that what we teach the Scouts?

[NJCubScouter]

Beavah says:

 

As a CubScouter, yeh may not be aware that there is no requirement that a BOR has to be held before the lad's 18th birthday. Also no requirement that all da paperwork has to be in by the birthday either. It's completely routine and ordinary for Eagle paperwork and reference letters and Eagle Boards of Review to be conducted after a lad turns 18.

 

So what you're worried about just ain't an issue.

 

Beavah, I don't think you correctly understand what I have written, or what CNYScouter has written. Despite the fact that my account-name has the word "Cub" in (because I never changed it after my son crossed over and I became a troop committee member, six years ago), I am very familiar with the application and the application process, especially the added requirements imposed by my council, because I have just been through this with my son (as I have written about in this thread.) I know the application by heart at this point. There are two places for the "council" to sign, one is under Requirement 6, which a "council representative" (on my son's application the person's title was "administrative specialist") has to sign before the BOR can take place. The second is under Requirement 7, where there are two spaces side-by-side for the BOR members to sign, and then the line for the SE's signature. I understand that Requirement 7 need not be done before the 18th birthday. What I have a problem with, among several other things, is that MY council requires the council signature under Requirement 6 (meaning that everything above that needs to be completed and signed as well) BEFORE the 18th birthday. (In other words, the application must be turned in at council twice, once before the BOR to get the sig under Requirement 6, and again after the BOR to be signed by the SE and sent to national. National does not seem to require that EITHER event occur before the 18th birthday, but my council requires that the first turning-in happen before the birthday.)

 

It is all well and good for you to say that it need not be turned in before the 18th birthday, because that's what national says, but a Scout who follows your advice in my council is NOT going to make Eagle. That's a problem. Likewise, it is all well and good for you to say that the reference letters need not be turned in before the birthday, but according to at least some of the information CNYScouter's son is receiving, if the letters are not in by his birthday, he's not going to make Eagle either. (Well, I think he is, but it may be because national overrules his council.)

 

So it IS an issue, because the councils are adding requirements. I find it difficult to believe that this thread has gotten to its sixth page (and now its seventh) without everybody being clear on that.

[NJCubScouter]

Either follow the rules or work to get them changed. Isn't that what we teach the Scouts?

 

TwoCubDad, are you implying that some adults in the Scouting program, including some in very important positions, are not always perfect role models for how we would like the Scouts to behave? I'm shocked!

[Beavah]

Beavah, I don't think you correctly understand what I have written, or what CNYScouter has written.

 

Could be.

 

But I reckon from CNY's last post that what's really goin' on is that CNY isn't correctly understanding what his district/council is askin' for or how they really work.

 

Yah, I certainly agree that da communication could be better. It can always be better, eh? There's all kinds of reasons for confusion. Scouters who don't get da memo, turnover in district or council volunteers, parents or boys aren't quite listenin', confusion between different levels of da organizations, etc.

 

Sometimes, too, I think adults set up artificial deadlines to try to push kids along or protect their own time, but that there's really some flexibility behind the scenes, so to speak. If a district advancement committee is gettin' tired of being hit with last-minute stuff by ill prepared lads, they'll tend to generate some documents to try to push more responsibility and timeliness out on da troops. Doesn't mean that they are (or can) hold to those, but if at least some folks pay attention it means that their volunteer time becomes a lot more pleasant, and more kids actually make it.

 

Puttin' things off to the last minute and then expectin' a lot of adults to panic and rush on your behalf ain't the most courteous thing a fellow applyin' for Eagle can do, eh? Tryin' to teach that a bit isn't awful.

 

I've seen all kinds of district weirdness and poor communication in da Eagle process, but in the end I've never really seen 'em do what you're worried about. I think CNY's son's bit will get straightened out just fine, but it should be CNY's son, and not CNY, that's doin' the straightening, since he is the fellow that procrastinated.

 

Beavah

 

[scoutdad61]

I have just spent the better part of an hour reading this thread. I am utterly amazed and somewhat ashamed at the behavior some of you have displayed toward one another in this forum! Would those of you who have thrown names and slurs at each other do that in front of your scouts? If so, shame on you! At the start of our troop meetings we line up for colors and then as an entire troop recite the scout oath and law, it reminds all of us, boys as well as adults, that we must all live by these principals or the program fails.

I now ask you, would any of you want ANY of your scouts to read this thread and see how some of these leaders have spoken to one another??

If you can't agree on what National means by the requirments for letters of recommendation and how to deal with them should they not be received, then continue to do what works best for your troop, district, or council. But do not continue to display un-scout like behavior in a forum that is meant to bring people together to share ideas and maybe learn something new. Debate is good, what some of you have done here is deplorable.

With that said, good day all.

 

Scouts Lead the Way

[NJCubScouter]

Beavah,

 

What you seem to be saying is, you don't think that the added (or accelerated) requirements imposed in some districts/councils are actually enforced to the point of denying anyone Eagle if they have complied with the national requirements -- or at least, that you have not seen it happen. Admittedly I have not heard of this happening in my district either. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen in my district, or elsewhere. Anecdotal evidence, either yours or mine, is of limited usefulness. It would be interesting to know whether it actually does happen and to what extent, and I have seen nothing in this forum that provides that information, one way or the other.

 

What I do know is that boys (and their parents) are TOLD in some districts/councils that if you don't do certain things by a certain date, you won't make Eagle, and when those things and dates are contrary to what national says, I think it's a problem. While some districts may set up a procedure that is designed to reduce the last-minute panic, in some situations the "added" procedure will make the last-minute situation worse. If, for example, the council signature in Requirement 6 on the application does not actually have to be there before the birthday, requiring that it be there before the birthday DOES add to the pre-birthday panic. It did in my son's case.

 

As for "courtesy", I completely agree with you about that. I can tell you that while my son is always courteous and respectful of adults in in-person settings, he created a lot of extra work and rushing-around for adults who were WILLING to do it for him, but who should not have had to do it. Even though I had told him months before that a last-minute rush had to be avoided, and the reasons why (including the inconvenience to others), the last-minute rush happened anyway. He could say "I know, I know" 50 times (and probably did) but I still don't think he was fully conscious of the burden he was about to place on others. I think that's a normal teenage reaction. I do think that as the last-minute rush was happening, he finally "got it." So maybe that's a positive. But if, at the Eagle BOR, he had been "graded" on how courteous he had been of other peoples' time, he would have had a problem.

[Lisabob]

Perhaps that's a valid EBOR question: Tell us what you've learned about how the scout law applies to the process of scheduling your EBOR.

 

Of course, any EBOR that asks that question had better be prepared to hear some things about how the scout perceives *their* actions, too.

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, Scoutdad61. Normally, the harsh tones are expressed in the Politics and Religion threads. This forum normally is just a good resource for clarification of questions about advancement. I guess where there are differences of opinion, all of us at times have thin skin or maybe get a little too aggressive. I'm sorry you had a bad experience on your first visit. It really is a pretty good place most of the time. Hope you come back to try it again.

[CNYScouter]

 

But I reckon from CNY's last post that what's really goin' on is that CNY isn't correctly understanding what his district/council is askin' for or how they really work.

 

I think that one of the big problems I have run into in our council is that we have 7 Districts and our Eagle clerk all working off of there own set of rules.

 

Each of them will tell you that their way is the correct way its done.

 

How can one understand what is being asked for when you get a different answer depending who you ask?

 

 

Awhile back during the Tweeking the program discussion someone posted (I couldnt find the exact post) asking that isnt the Scouting program flexible enough without making up a program on their own.

 

I see similarities in this topic that you could ask this same question with.

 

The ACP&P is pretty open on the how/what/why an Eagle project is approved. Councils and Districts have a lot of leeway to do things that fit into a Councils or Districts program.

 

The same with an EBOR.

Lots of latitude on a how these are held and conducted within a council or District.

 

But the procedure for letters of reference is pretty specific on the steps to follow and even allows some local option if a Scout is required to send out a form letter or not.

 

Is this not flexible enough?

 

As a Leader we are told to not add to the Advancement requirements

 

As a Scout trainer I am asked to stick to the syllabus.

 

But we should give this a pass because its for Eagle or just because its volunteers and theres nothing we can do?

 

My son Birthday was yesterday.

He hasnt heard anything yet about his EBOR.

Hes hoping that he can do it when the EBOR meets again right before Thanksgivings.

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

CNY,

 

It was my understanding that the BOR cannot be scheduled until the council signature (under Requirement 6, not Requirement 7) is on the application. Did your son's app get that signature? I had understood from one of your posts that this was a problem.

 

(The application doesn't actually say that the BOR can't be scheduled until the council signs it under Requirement 6, but it does say that in step 7 of the "12 steps from Life to Eagle" which is the last page of the official project workbook. (Or at least, it is strongly implied. It depends on whose signature is being referred to in the words "appropriately signed" in the first sentence of step 7. Since, at the time of step 7, the application is in the hands of the council service center, I think it can only mean, signed by someone at the service center.) Later in the same sentence it says that the application, workbook, and "references" are "returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle Board of Review so that a board of review may be scheduled. Under no circumstances should a board of review be scheduled until the application is returned to the chairman of the Eagle board of review." It doesn't actually happen that way in my council -- after the Eagle registrar at the council office signs the application, and makes a copy of the workbook, she hands the original application and workbook back to the applicant (or whoever handed it in, such as the Scout's father trying to get this done at lunchtime), with a letter saying "Call (name of DAC chair) to schedule a board of review." The applicant then calls (or e-mails) the DAC chair, makes the appointment for the BOR, then arranges for at least two troop committee members to be there on that date, then brings the application and original workbook (with photocopies for the BOR members) to the BOR. The Scoutmaster brings the letters of reference that the Scout has arranged to be sent to him. Of course, we already know that part of this process is different in your council, and others.)

[Twocubdad]

I have to say once your application is accepted at the service center, the process goes very well.

 

When the council registrar gets the application, she verifies all the data and signs under Req. 6. If there are any discrepancies, the registrar contacts the troop to figure it out. Once it is approved, the district advancement chairman is contacted and assigns the packet to a district Eagle board representative. The district contacts the troop and schedules the board of review. It's up to the troop to work out a convenient time between the Scout, the board and the district rep.

[NJCubScouter]

Once it is approved, the district advancement chairman is contacted and assigns the packet to a district Eagle board representative. The district contacts the troop and schedules the board of review. It's up to the troop to work out a convenient time between the Scout, the board and the district rep.

 

TwoCub, I have to laugh a little because in our district this part of the process is pretty much the opposite of that, although I don't think the variations cause any harm. When the council office has approved the application (under Requirement 6), the application and original workbook are given back to the applicant (you have to go back two days after dropping it off and get it, unless you have persuaded them to check it and sign it on the spot, because there's no time to wait two days.) Along with the application and workbook the applicant is given a letter instructing him to contact the Eagle coordinator for the district (which I think is also the DAC chair.) The Scout does that, and the Eagle coordinator and the Scout agree on a date for the BOR. (All Eagle BOR's are held in a central location on a specific day every two weeks.) It is then the Scout's responsibility to contact at least three members of the troop committee and arrange for them to be present at the central district location at the right day and time, and to also inform the Scoutmaster and the troop advancement committee chair, if the latter is not already one of the chosen BOR members. (I have a feeling that other troops may have the troop advancement chair select the BOR members from the troop, but ours leaves it up to the Scout, which I found somewhat surprising when I found out about it.) The troop committee members, the Scout and the Scoutmaster then appear at the district location at the appropriate time. At that meeting there are usually a number of Scouts present, some with appointments for project pre-approval, others for post-project reviews, and others for BOR's. The DAC chair sees who's there, assigns one of the DAC members present to chair the BOR for that particular Scout, and that person sits down with the troop committee members and they conduct the BOR.

 

I think it's just a different way of doing it. I suppose technically it is a "troop BOR" but it is held "at" the district, probably so that the DAC members don't have to travel all over the place. And this way, one DAC member could chair 3 or 4 BOR's in one night, if necessary.

[packsaddle]

A couple of years ago, the boy had to get the DAC to approve the project prior to getting ANY other signatures on the workbook. And because of the problems with dates, etc. I would contact the council to check to make sure everything on the application was in agreement with them. The EBOR would proceed and the application would go to council for their signature.

NOW, for the project ALL signatures must be in place BEFORE the DAC will even look at it. If he agrees with everyone else the boy is allowed to proceed with the project. NOW, we drive two hours round trip to the council office to drop the form off to check the dates. And then we drive two hours round trip to pick up the signed form. We tried mail. That bad, bad USPS keeps losing paperwork...yep, it MUST be the USPS! So we have a chain of custody, 4 hours of driving, and whatever delay it involves....for one signature.

[Abel Magwitch]

 

There have been some subtle changes over the past few years made to the 12 steps to Eagle. I find that the BSA neglects to get the word out sufficiently. The latest edition of the Advancement Committee Book has been changed as well. If you dont have one yet, get one. The changes are listed page by page.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-927.pdf

 

Here is the most recent edition of the 12 steps to Eagle:

 

6. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association).

 

The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application by letter, form, or telephone checklist.

 

There are several ways listed to contact a candidates references. Council determines the method or methods to be used.

 

The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application.

 

*If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee.

 

And should an individual council does desire to use a reference letter or form then the next paragraph applies;

 

If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses.

 

The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names.

 

But even if a council has determined that is will request the Eagle candidate to provide letters, it still is not a mandatory requirement. As long as contact is made to the candidates references by the council advancement committee, the board should be held.

 

A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

 

Here is how the reference letter requirement was listed in a previous edition of the 12 steps to Eagle. This method should no longer be used:

 

5. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist.

 

The council determines the method or methods to be used.

 

The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application.

 

The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center.

 

7. After the contents of an application have been verified and appropriately signed, the application, Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review so that a board of review may be scheduled.

 

Under no circumstances should a board of review be scheduled until the application is returned to the chairman of the Eagle board of review. Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review.

 

Reference letters are an option one of three methods listed to contact a candidates references and nothing more. It is not mandatory to have to use a reference letter.

 

What is required is that the references listed on the Eagle application are contacted.

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)