Eagle Letters of Recommendation is NOT a requirement. Time to clear this up.

[BrentAllen]

BadenP,

We just try to stick to the information provided in the ACP&P:

 

"The board of review should take approximately 30 minutes." pg. 30, Eagle Scout Boards of Review

 

If we have a need to run a little longer, we will.

 

So, how long does your average EBOR run?

[Mafaking]

 

I just completed a job interview

 

Five separate interviews totaling 15 hours and eight people. I had to supply copies of my work, School records and of course three reference contacts.

 

All three refernces were contacted and asked to submit comments.

 

The evidence here is that references matter.

 

 

[SMEagle819]

Brent,

 

Yes, this Eagle candidate brought the letters he obtained with him to his EBOR.

[BrentAllen]

SMEagle,

I would suggest you get a copy of the Advancement Committee Policy & Procedures and go over the 12 Steps From Life to Eagle. The candidate isn't supposed to ever have those letters.

 

"The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee." pg. 31.

 

"Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review." pg. 32.

 

"Immediately after the board of review and after the application has been appropriately signed, the application, the service project report, references, and a properly completed Advancement Report are returned to the council service center."

 

"The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook and references are retained by council. The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook may be returned to the Scout after council approval." Pg. 32

 

The reference letters are not returned to the candidate. The people that wrote them could give copies to the candidate, if they wanted to, but the ones we receive are never shown to the candidate.

 

If anyone is arguing that references aren't important, hopefully all the language above will show the BSA certainly feels they are.

[evmori]

If anyone is arguing that references aren't important, hopefully all the language above will show the BSA certainly feels they are.

 

I don't think anyone has stated the references are not important, but a council should not hold up an Eagle BOR if they have not been received.

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

BadenP doesn't seem to have much use for them. By the way, BadenP, it is 5, not 3.

[NJCubScouter]

The pain of this subject is very fresh in my mind, though it is receding, because my son did make it, just under the wire. (Within the past month; BOR within the past two weeks.) As I said in another post, I felt he was being made to do things that were not actually in the national requirements, and time was a real issue. (Of course, it was ultimately his fault that time was such a big issue, since he could have gotten it all done many months ago, but I was irritated that the "local" requirements were making it more of an issue.)

 

Before his 18th birthday, he was required to have in the hands of the "Eagle registrar" at the council office (which is not very near where we live) his application, signed by the unit committee chair and Scoutmaster (which was an issue because people had neglected to consult my son and make sure their vacation schedules didn't take place the week before his birthday, when his project and last 2 merit badges were signed off. And yes, that was sarcasm back there; my son did not plan ahead as he should have.) I don't see where in the requirements it says the application has to be submitted before the birthday. I see where the requirements all have to be completed before the birthday, and I also see where the Scout has to sign that the requirements were all completed before the birthday (which come to think of it, would be unnecessary if the application has to be in before the birthday.) And, of course, the names of five references (including a parent) must be on the application.

 

As for the letters, in our council they do not have to be submitted with the application. In fact they are never supposed to be in the Scout's hands. The letters do not necessarily have to exist before the 18th birthday, but the Scout is instructed to request them before the birthday. I believe that the purpose of this instruction is to allow the BOR to take place within a reasonably short time after the birthday. At least three letters (not five) are required at the BOR in our district. No three letters, no BOR. (If a Scout actually requested one of the letters a day or two after his birthday, which (ahem) may have happened in a case I know about, that's technically ok, as long as the letter shows up when it is supposed to.) The Scout is supposed to ask the letter-writers to mail the letter to the Scoutmaster, who is then responsible for getting the sealed letters to the BOR.

 

All of this, the application before the birthday and requesting the letters and making sure they got to the SM and that the SM got them to the BOR, did happen in my son's case. But I don't see where it was required, and it certainly added a lot of aggravation (especially the before-the-birthday part.) However, both my son and I took the attitude, don't fight city hall, do what you're being asked to do, and fortunately it did work out.

[BadenP]

Brent

YOU JUST LOVE TO PICK A FIGHT EVERY TIME DON'CHA DUNWOODY. I never said that Brent, the letters, as ed states, should not and can not be held over the kids head as a threat ever. Unless you know the people who wrote the letters they really don't mean as much as talking to the boy and letting him present his case to the board. I bet in Dunwoody Brent you sit there with a check off list to make sure everything is in and hardly talk to the boy at all, thats why it is vital that the EBOR members are intelligent,and have real people and interviewing skills (probably hard to find in Dunwoody eh Brent, lol).

 

Since you apparently use these letters as a crutch and prize them so highly in determining eligibility for Eagle and limit the time to 30 minutes I am willing to bet you guys never really get to know the candidates, instead making them jump through all the hoops and hurdles your district has created. Scoutldr is still correct Brent the letters are not a requirement and the district does not have the authority to make them a requirement like it or not that is Nationals call. Have a nice evening Brent.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[prof]

"Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review." pg. 32.

 

I am curious. Would anyone hold back an Eagle candidate based on a letter? If so, how would you explain that to the candidate? (while ensuring the confidentiality of the writer?)

[Oak Tree]

I don't have enough experience with EBORs to know if I'd hold a Scout back or not. I can certainly imagine situations where I might. If the letter-writers unanimously did not recommend the Scout, that would be an issue. If the letter-writers discuss things that are generally known about the Scout, it would be easy enough to discuss.

 

What would be hard would be if one letter-writer related something in confidence. "This boy told me conspiratorialy that he actually hates Scouts and he's only getting Eagle to get his dad off his back and he actually plans to take his medal out to the shooting range and blow holes in it and then dip it in urine and display it at the next school art conference, just to get back at his dad. I'm kind of laid back with the kids, so he must have thought I'd be cool with it, but I just can't recommend him under these circumstances."

 

I imagine that most of the time, though, it would be hard to turn down a boy just based on one letter writer.

 

NJCubScouter, how about this? Talk to the Scoutmaster, confirm that he agrees to sign the document, have him sign a blank piece of paper, take a picture with his cell phone, email it to you, and then you print his signature onto the form. Not that I've ever heard of anyone doing that... He could also just sign a power of attorney, authorizing someone to sign for him, but that's so much more boring.

[BrentAllen]

prof,

That's not very likely to happen, as the Scout chooses who will provide the references. I guess someone who felt the boy shouldn't earn the award because of some incident could submit a letter, but I've never heard of that happening.

[NJCubScouter]

Oak Tree: It got worked out, we need not say exactly how. No photos or powers of attorney involved, but yes, there were cell phones. Everything was authorized, everybody's happy. (With the possible exception of my cardiologist.)

 

I realized I left out a few extra BOR requirements, but I'll have to write about those tomorrow.

 

Hint: "Ok, Eagle candidate, let's see your 21 (plus) blue cards and check the dates against the national printout before we'll even talk to you."

[Twocubdad]

All of which points to the wisdom of conducting the EBOR within the troop, plus a representative from the district advancement committee. The majority of the folks sitting on a Scout's EBOR have known him for years and watched him grow up in Scouting. The letters become unnecessary.

[NJCubScouter]

TwoCub, in our district the BOR's are conducted with all unit people plus the district representative. It doesn't change the fact that the district person has a checklist on which the 3 letters are a requirement, and the BOR isn't going to get signed off without those letters.

 

Or the blue cards for every merit badge earned by the Scout, with dates matching the national advancement printout.

 

Or what they call a "good variety" of signatures of merit badge counselors. I am not sure what they are really looking for there. I have a feeling they are just watching out for "cheating" and that if the blue cards show evidence of that, there's a problem. Otherwise, they find a "good variety."

 

But these are the "requirements", regardless of the fact that all but one of the BOR members know the Scout.

[BrentAllen]

TCD,

We run our district EBOR the same as a unit - two adults from his unit, plus a member from district. We conduct them in a central location, once a month, to help with everyone's schedules. Yes, these adults on the board know the candidate thru Scouting. You miss the point of the reference letters:

 

"Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf."

 

We want to see how people outside of Scouting see him. Do they see him living the Oath and Law? Letters from religious leaders, school teachers, neighbors - all from people outside of Scouting who see the candidate often - what do they think?