Eagle Letters of Recommendation is NOT a requirement. Time to clear this up.

[scoutldr]

Regardless of what ACP&P says, that ain't the way it's done in all Councils. In the Council in which I serve, the ones "dumped on" are the unit committee, who conducts the EBOR with a District Rep present (I am one of those "District guys"). Council doesn't do squat. In fact, there are no "standard form letters"...each unit does whatever it wants. As the District guy, I would certainly NOT hold up an EBOR if there were no letters present. I WOULD ask the Unit CC if the references had been checked. Not sure what I would do if he said "no"...I guess punt it to the DAC for a ruling. In any event, I do not believe it's the Scout's responsibility to follow up on the references.

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

I just did show you.

 

Step 7 "...and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review SO THAT A BOARD OF REVIEW MAY BE SCHEDULED."

 

I would also direct you to the flow chart in the AAC Life to Eagle Guidebook.

Eagle Scout Board of Review

Unit contacts District to Arrange Board of Review -> Letters of Reference Have Been Received -> Board of Review Conducted -> Application Submitted to Council.

 

[BadenP]

Brent your argument is moot and no one is listening anymore. Twisting and turning what you do in your troop or district does not make it a fact for the rest of the country. Your starting premise for this discussion is invalid rendering the rest of your argument invalid, wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

[OldGreyEagle]

When you say no one is listening anymore do you mean absolutely everyone and you are prescient enough to know this or is this another one of the argumentative styles you have where you say something you know to be false but its just your style? Are you sure you want to speak for the Forum, again?

 

Anyhow Brent, just like Dr Frazer Crane, I am listening and I see the confusion. I think

 

In Number 6 it states: A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed Because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

 

So I can see where our good buddy Ed says you cant use not having the letters as an excuse to postpone the Eagle Board of Review. The rules say you cant postpone or deny the Eagle Boardof Review.

 

Then in Number 7 it says the application, Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review so that a board of review may be scheduled

 

So the thinking is on your part, how can the Board of review be scheduled if the references are not back?

 

I think the answer is we are all locked up with letters. The Eagle candidate is required to give the references and the Council is to determine how the references are gathered. For your council its by letter (mine as well). But others may have people call and talk to the references and record this on an outline form and this is the reference that is passed along. There could be other methods.

 

Number 7 says and references will be it does not say reference letters, the references may take any form the Council wishes. Heck in a few years a few minutes of video may be requested in some Council as the children of the video age take our places.

 

Now there is a disconnect, number 6 says A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered but number 7 says, the application, Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review so that a board of review may be scheduled

 

So it appears the references have to be present (although not necessarily in letter form) before the Eagle Board may be scheduled, but then number 6 says you can't postpone or deny a Eagle Board because because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

 

So, what is the answer? If I had one we wouldnt be this many posts along, if anyone had one, we wouldnt be this many posts along.

 

My advice to scouts out there?

 

Get the letters!

 

Edited part:

 

In reading over the post, I notices something, Number 7 says "...references will be returned" To return something, doesnt that mean the person has had to have had them at some point in the past? Why would the Eagle Chair have the Application and Eagle Workbook and the whole shebang anyway?

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[evmori]

Here's the rub Brent. If the council doesn't do it's job then the Scout is the one left out! And if they want letters and don't get them, then that can't hold up the EBOR! So it would also make sense that if the council didn't contact the references, they couldn't hold up the BOR.

 

Is that too logical?

[NJCubScouter]

OGE, you do that low Frasier Crane voice so well... "I am listening..."

 

Your advice is correct. Get the letters. Get the letters when, where and in the quantity that your local DAC or council says to do it. If your DAC says that the Scout is never supposed to have possession of the letters, ask your letter-writers to send them to the Scoutmaster (or whoever is prescribed in your district, I almost said area but then people might think I meant Area in Scout-speak) and, if you have time, give the letter writers stamped envelopes with the Scoutmaster's address on them. (My son was strongly advised to do that, but he did everything by e-mail and it was tough to fit an envelope into the little wires.) Then, when the deadline for the letters (the 18th birthday in CNY's son's case, the BOR date in my son's case, but that's only because the SM was able to come to the BOR, if not we would have had to make yet more arrangements) is a few days away and you don't know whether they've been sent yet, start sending polite but annoying e-mails to both the letter-writers and the SM to find out.

 

But wouldn't it be nice if everybody, in every district, were following the same rules? If the national rules say that the BOR will not be delayed or denied due to the letters not being there, then that is what the district should follow. In my district that's not what they follow and in CNY's district it is even worse because apparently the letters have to be in sooner.

[BadenP]

AHH OGE and your style is to use or abuse your moderator status to manipulate things to your line of thinking, no I do not speak for anyone else, my comment was based on observation at all the negative feedback Dunwoody was receiving refuting his position and I am surprised you were unable to pick up on that yourself, but then again you are a member of the loathsome ilk club, lol.

[BrentAllen]

Ed,

If you want to get down to brass tacks, in order to pass requirement 2, references must be provided and contacted - information must be received from them as evidence. That evidence can come in the form of a letter of recommendation (required in our council, approved by national) or by contact with the council advancement committee. That is the reason behind requirement #2.

 

You don't seem to see that this is a requirement, that it must happen before the EBOR can take place. Those references are supposed to be heard from, and their information provided to the EBOR so the board can determine if the candidate has passed requirement #2. If the letters are not received, the cac contacts the references, records the information given, and provides the info the EBOR. The EBOR needs that information to proceed.

 

Why would references be requested, along with all of their contact information?

[click23]

Here is # 6 directly from the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Guidebook

 

When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application, either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

 

This is my easier to read interpretation of that:

 

1. The scout contacts the reference.

 

2. Scout submits application, its contents are verified by the council and the references listed will be contacted by the council advancement committee or its designee. The only acceptable forms of references are letter, form, or telephone checklist.

 

3. If the council directs, the scout my deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references, but scout should not be involved returning the letter or form back to the council.

 

4. If the reference letters or forms are not returned to the council promptly, then the council advancement committee must contact the references listed on the eagle application. The scout is not required to make contact with references at this point or submit other reference names.

 

5. The scout may not have his EBOR denied or even postponed because the council has not received the reference letters.

 

[SR540Beaver]

For crying out loud you guys........do you all need to be sent to your timeout corners?

 

How about we grow up and set the example by living the oath and law in our internet life which is part of our daily life.

 

Would you act this way in front of your scouts? Seriously?

[NJCubScouter]

I agree with SR540. Amidst the noise created by un-Scoutlike behavior by one or more posters, I am not even sure what issue(s) is/are being discussed in this thread. Is it (1) what the national rules actually are? (2) what the national rules mean? (3) whether there are variations between the national rules and what councils and districts actually do (which there surely are) (4) whether the national rules should be changed (an entirely different subject from #1 or 2) and/or (5) what a Scout and his parents should do when confronted by #3. I've seen a little of all five in this discussion, but it sure gets confusing when so many different aspects are being discussed at once.

[SR540Beaver]

NJ,

 

All I've gotten out of it is neener, neener, neener. I think I'll head over to the politics forum where it's a little more friendly.

[CNYScouter]

Then in Number 7 it says the application, Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and references will be returned from the council service center to the chairman of the Eagle board of review so that a board of review may be scheduled

 

In no where in Number 7 it says that it must be reference letters nor des it say all.

If the CAC or DAC contacts a reference by phone there would be nothing to return.

I think this is put in to make sure that reference letters stay confidential.

 

 

My son turned in his Eagle Application yesterday again another concern came up.

 

The Eagle Clerk will not sign as receiving the application until all the reference letters are in.

As of yesterday only 2 (of 5) were in.

2 others have told him they did send it in.

 

The last one, from a religious leader, is the one that has him worried.

Our Church doesnt have a full-time priest and is being run by a Board of Directors.

Its been over a year and half and they havent found a replacement yet.

My son doesnt know anyone on the BOD (and neither do my wife and I)

 

My son took conformation classes last spring and asked the person who ran this for the reference letter.

Hes a really nice guy but extremely unorganized and not very reliable. It took 5 months to complete the 6 week conformation classes as he was always canceling and rescheduling often at the last minute.

My son didnt know who else to ask.

 

I advised him to contact the DAC and our SE and express his concern about this last signature.

 

With his birthday tomorrow theres not much time left.

 

[evmori]

Sorry Brent but you are reading between the lines. We are just going to have to agree to disagree!

[NJCubScouter]

CNYScouter:

 

Excuse me for thinking like a lawyer here, but: Do you have a piece of paper -- either an e-mail, or a note signed by the Eagle clerk, or someone else in the hierarchy -- verifying that the application WAS submitted yesterday (or in other words, before your son's birthday), but is incomplete because there are not enough letters? I ask because, if you haven't already, you want to take steps to limit the number of issues that would be involved in any appeal. If you do have to file an appeal, you want National to be able to say, ok, there is no question that the application was in on time, now we just have to decide whether the council was correct in requiring five letters to be submitted with the application. And since the national policies say what has been reported in this forum, it is difficult to see how National would uphold the council. But you don't want there to be any question that what was submitted on time, was submitted on time. (In our council when you give them paperwork, they give you a pre-printed receipt that says something like, your project workbook was received on such-and-such date, and when I handed in my son's application AFTER the BOR I got the same receipt, and I said, but this isn't really correct, this is for the application, not the workbook. They said don't worry about it, and I didn't make a scene because at that point it was past his birthday anyway, but I did follow up with an e-mail and got confirmation that the application was submitted to National. Several weeks earlier, on the last business day before my son's birthday, they tried to give me a receipt and I said no, I need a signature on the application today, and I'm not leaving until I get it. (I was much more polite than that, and I got what I was asking for.) The only reason I mention this is to advise you that in your case, DON'T accept a generic receipt. You want a piece of paper, BEFORE the birthday, saying the Application was submitted on (date) and, if possible, it should also say that it was not accepted because (reason.))

 

In other words, you want to set up your appeal and make sure that non-existent issues (like when did you try to submit the application) don't become real issues when National starts asking questions and the clerk becomes defensive and won't verify that the application was even submitted on time. (This comes from long and sad experience dealing with bureacracies.)

 

And when I say "you" I actually mean your son, it was just easier to write "you." Good luck.