Summertime POR credit

[Frank17]

Most of the troops in our district (including ours) do not meet over the summer months. We have our last Troop meeting and COH in early June, attend week-long council Summer camp in late June, and are done as a Troop until our next meeting in early September. Some of the scouts will attend other camps or merit badge camps sponsored by council in July & August, but we as a Troop do not plan or attend these events. The Troop does plan some high adventure trips for the summer, but they are attended by only about 20% of our scouts, in a camping patrol organization.

 

Now my question: for achieving Star, Life & Eagle, the scout must act in a POR for the Troop for a period of 4 to 6 months. We (as Troop SMs and ASMs) have always held the rule that credit for PORs is not given over the summer months, except for June when we meet as a Troop and attend summer camp as a Troop. Simce we do not meet or participate in Troop level activities over the summer, we do not give credit for July or August POR time. What do other Troops do? Is it ever an issue?

 

[kittle]

Our Troop only gives credit if the position is 'active'. If our Troop didn't meet during the summer, we wouldn't give credit.(This message has been edited by kittle)

[CalicoPenn]

Do you remove the lads from their POR's during the time your unit is "inactive"? Do you remove the lads from the charter during the time your unit is "inactive"? No? Then they are actively serving their POR's, even if you aren't meeting as a Troop. If a lad has a POR, then the BSA considers him to be actively serving in the POR. The only way a lad is not actively serving is if he doesn't hold a POR, and the only ways he isn't holding a POR is if he hasn't been elected/appointed to a POR, or has been removed from his POR.

 

It matters not one whit if the unit is not meeting for two months - if the lad still holds a POR then he is still actively serving in the POR - and he gets credit for serving in the POR.

 

My question is why the heck is your Troop (and the majority of Troops in your District) acting like Cub Scout Packs and not Boy Scout Troops. Cub Scout Packs generally run on a school year calendar - with perhaps a couple special activities in the summer. The BSA even gives out a Summertime Pack Award to Packs that hold summer events. Notice there is no such thing as a Summertime Troop Award? That's because the Boy Scout Program is set up to run on a full year calendar, not a school year calendar. Boy Scout Troops and Patrols should be meeting and active all year round. Maybe in the summer, the Troop meets every other week, but they should still meet. Patrols should be encouraged to use a down activity month (like August) to plan their own campout/hike/outings.

 

I can't imagine the record keeping nightmare of not giving credit in the summer for PORs - what about the Den Chief who attend Summer Camp with his Troop in June, helps out his Den at Day Camp in July and helps out the Pack at the Pack's annual picnic in August - he's still "active" - do you give him credit and not the SPL that approved the Den Chiefs appointment? Or does he get penalized because no one else holding a POR was "active"? What about the winter months? I know many Troops that stop meeting during the schools winter holidays - usually a period of two weeks - do you not give credit for PORs during those two weeks?

 

As Scoutmasters and ASM's, shouldn't you be spending more time trying to encourage Scouts to advance rather than putting artificial roadblocks in their way? How encouraging is it to tell your SPL that "you weren't SPL in July or August"? Were you folks still Scoutmasters and ASM's? I guarantee if you were going for one of the adult awards for Scoutmasters and ASM's, your time as SM and ASM during July and August would count towards any time in service requirements. Shouldn't the same be true for your own Scouts??

[Beavah]

Don't think it should be an issue, Frank17. Yeh essentially are removing everyone from their POR for the summer months, so the clock stops when you say it does.

 

Now, there are quite a few troops out there that don't shut down for da summer, eh? Especially since yeh live in northern a northern clime, seems like just a cryin' shame not to be actively scouting in the summer months. Especially these days when da economic situation is such that families are less likely to be takin' big vacations and kids are more likely to be sittin' around da house playin' video games.

 

Might be worth talkin' to your boys about whether they might want to run a summer program. Yeh might even find out that's when they have da most time to be good, responsible, active leaders and participants.

 

Beavah

 

[eghiglie]

We do not meet over the summer either and for July and August PoR credit is suspended also.

 

We are kind of lenient that we credit all of June even though we end the middle of June. We also credit all of September even though we don't meet again till the Monday after Labor Day.

 

By the way the boys voted for no summer program and they live with this outcome.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

As long as you tell the boys ahead of time that you aren't counting the summer months, I think you're doing fine.

 

Our troop meets all summer, the same as the rest of the year. The pack has sporadic meetings, but at least one per month, so we give the den chiefs credit as well.

[CalicoPenn]

Let's explore it a little more - does your unit elect the SPL and PL's, the way they should? If they're removed from office for the sake of not getting POR credit in the summer, are they re-elected in September or do the adults just re-appoint them? If they're just re-appointed, are you really following the program the way it's intended?

 

If the Troop has no youth leaders for two months, is a Scout Troop still a Scout Troop? Are the boys really Scouts during July and August? If they can't earn POR credit in July and August, is it fair to say they still must have Scout Spirit in July and August? Why would they have to meet that requirement if they're not allowed to meet the other requirement?

 

Are you still Scoutmasters and ASM's in July and August? If the boys POR's are suspended, shouldn't the adults leadership roles be suspended too?

 

What happens? On July 1, do they magically become non-Scouts and on September 1, they magically become Scouts again?

 

Here's my challenge - find anything in the Scoutmasters Handbook, the Patrol Leaders Handbook, the Boy Scout Handbook - in any official BSA literature (not a website from a Troop - official National BSA Literature) that makes even a suggestion that POR's aren't part of the BSA program in the summer, anything that suggests that POR's are suspended in the Summer. If you can find that, if you can find any suggestion in official literature that states that POR's don't count if a troop doesn't meet for a month or two - then rest assured you're doing ok. If you can't find anything that suggest is (I should say WHEN), then you might just want to rethink your policy because there must be some reason the BSA never mentions this.

 

Sure, there will be quite a few people on the forum who will say "It's fine, it's what our Troop does" - but that doesn't make it right. If 9 out of 10 people tie a granny knot and call it a square knot, does it really make their granny knots square knots?

 

The fact that you're even asking this question suggests that there is something in the back of your mind, or even in the front of your mind, that bothers you about it. I think you know it's not kosher - the question is are you going to do the harder thing and buck the rest of the program leaders in the Troop to make sure the Troop's policy is changed to reflect what it should be, or will you take comfort in folks who also do it your way as proof that it's ok.

 

You asked if it could pose a problem - let me give a hypothetical. You have a Scout who turns 18 at the end of September. He earns his Life on March 14 and wants to earn Eagle. He's got a project ready to go which will be completed well before times up. He's got all his merit badges and needs to make sure he's got 6 months of time in on a POR. He starts his Eagle-required POR (say Instuctor) on March 15. By September 15, he served the 6 months in POR - he can have his SM Conference and schedule his BOR before he turns 18. But wait!!!! Your Troop's policy is that POR time doesn't count in July and August - which means he only has 4 months POR time - sorry bub, no Eagle for you. Is that really how you want it to go down?

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Calico, you're goin' a bit over da top here, eh?

 

The troop isn't runnin' in the summer. There's nothin' for the lads to be responsible for.

 

It's not about da procedures and awards. It's about helpin' the kids to learn and grow. Learnin' and growin' takes both time and engagement. If yeh aren't helpin' the kids learn and grow for a full six months but are pretendin' that yeh are on paper, then yeh aren't followin' the program no matter how yeh cut it.

 

If yeh are helpin' the lads learn and grow and be responsible for a full six months, however yeh split it up, then you're doin' just fine. Though I don't personally care for it, lots of troops suspend operations in da summer, and pick up with a new PLC in the fall. It works for them, and it's not at all against the rules or contrary to da program materials.*

 

Not everything in da life of a troop has to turn around getting boys cloth patches in da minimum amount of chronological time. And I reckon that a 17.9 year old in any troop like this has known the expectations for about 7 years, eh?

 

Beavah

 

* I hear tell that one exception is units chartered to Catholic COs. Their national organization either recommends or requires a year-round program.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Oak Tree]

I'm with Beavah on this one, Calico. Seems like you might be a wee bit aggressive here.

 

Here's the official policy from the web:

 

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?

Answer:A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

 

He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).

He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.

He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

 

So to be official, I would say, "For two months in the summer, Scouts will not be engaged by unit leadership on a regular basis. Officially, Scouts will not be fulfilling the obligations of their leadership positions, so we will remove the Scouts from those positions for those two months. Positions of responsibility will be reinstated (or re-elected) when we begin meeting again in the fall."

 

But I don't think you need to be all that technical about it. Most people get the idea if you just state it up front.

 

(This message has been edited by Oak Tree)

[jac0033]

I agree with Calico

 

If the scout is the Instructor and needs the position for 6 months for the next rank advancement, how can he be responsible for the fact the troop does not meet for 2 months. If you look at from a monthly basis, he can demonstrate his position at 4 meetings and 1 campout. So maybe he is Instructing 6 or 7 days out of the month. With "no-credit" type of thinking, should he even be credited for the month?

 

I think it silly to take away the two months that is out the scouts control, who knows maybe in the two month downtime he is planning what skills and techniques he will present to the troop when they reconvene in Sept. Would that not be actively serving?

[John-in-KC]

Why aren't Troops meeting over the summer? That's my bigger question. Summer was when SMs had undivided attention from the kids who were in town. Summertime is Scout Camp, hiking, bicycling, and canoeing time. What's the advantage to shutting down?

 

I would hope that if any Troop does shut down, that if they suspend POR clocks, they talk about it very clearly with youth and parents.

 

To me, this is an incredibly bad idea... to shut a Troop down for the summer. If EagleSon were still a youth member, and I found out his troop was locking up, I'd be looking for a new Troop for him.

[Frank17]

Just to clarify:

We give the scouts credit for "Be active in your troop and patrol" over the summer; we are still a Troop even if we do not meet those 2 months. We just do not give credit for "serve actively X months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility", since we do not meet.

 

As far as Summertime meetings go, I am not going to debate the merits of that in this discussion. Suffice it to say we are a Scout led troop, and the boys vote every week based on their attendance. Normally, we have 50-60% attendance at outings and 80%+ at meetings. When we have tried to have additional Summer events (hikes, camps, rafting) in the past, less than 10% of the scouts show. Not a very good return, not what I would want as the SM, but that is the way it is.

[BrentAllen]

John,

That is one of the reasons we ended up forming our Troop - the other one shut down for the summer. I didn't ask that question when we visited, because I didn't even think that was a possibility. Since then, I have found there are a good number of Troops that do take a few months off.

 

As a Scout, and now as a leader, summertime meetings are great! No school the next day, no homework to worry about. The boys aren't in a big hurry to get home, so games can run a little longer. I can meet with Scouts right after the meeting to talk about advancement issues or anything else. Sometimes we even decide to run over to Bruesters and grab some ice cream at 9:30 at night. The whole atmosphere is just more relaxed, and the Scouts are excited about Summer Camp and the High Adventure trip coming up. Stories from past Summer Camps get retold, again. These are some of the funnest meetings we have.

[Eagle92]

I am also asking why no meetings over the summer. In my old troop, summer was usually when 1) we had the mosty attendance 2) the best campouts and 3) more work and play at the meetings without the parents complaining about going over the meeting times.

[sbemis1]

Calico is correct

The troop is running over the summer whether they are meeting or not. High adventure programs are troop sponsored activites regardless of how many attend.